What would you do?

[Hogfarmer10]

I have basically 3 herds of cattle. 2 herds are completely purebred Charolais and the 3rd herd is 80% pure Charolais. (we had some Ayrshire/Charolais and some Ayrshire/Angus cross heifers that we retained when we quit milking). We've never brought in any females, only bulls, and bulls only since we quit using AI. My question is, what would you cross these cattle with? I personally don't like to crossbreed, however I really don't like getting docked a guaranteed $.35-$.40 when I pull in with a load of calves. And that's regardless of stockyard or cattle buy-up station. I've thought about a black balancer, sim-angus, or if I could find one close enough, a black Charolais. I know that last one will open a can of worms,but I'm still intrigued. I just can't find any close to east TN. I'm still a die hard Charolais man. I'd like to cross for a while then go back purebred for a while then back to crossbreed, etc. I've got a thought about retaining the crossed heifers and finding another black bull, for adding essentially another herd, but that's another topic. What's your recommendations? Thanks in advance

 

[Rydero]

Why don't you like to crossbreed? Hybrid vigor is a powerful thing, not sure why you wouldn't want to use that. I'm sure you have your reasons. I tried one time breeding my whites black at the same time as I bred my blacks Charolais thinking I'd get the same calves but I was mistaken. Breeding the Charolais cows black made different color - more grey than silver, smaller framed, just all around disappointing ugly calves. So...I'd suggest something red. Red angus, Red Sim, Limo, or maybe Maine Anjou? If you're going to keep replacements maybe something to add milk to the Charolais. The Angus might be a waste on the Char cows - not sure which continental breed is furthest from Charolais but I'd use that if I wanted to add more hybrid vigour.

 

[Hogfarmer10]

Long story short- I hate crossbreds. I just prefer purebred animals. And I can't go red because I'd still have a pink nose, which is why my Charolais are getting docked at the sales to begin with. A point that I've brought up with buyers, sellers, commercial buyers, stockyard owners, etc. nobody knows why, it's just accepted practice. I've heard everything from "they don't overwinter as good" to "they make load lots look less uniform" and everything in between. I've also heard it's because Charolais are wild and crazy. I've got nearly 100 here that says otherwise. If I have an animal that will not let you walk up to in the pasture and throw your arm around their neck and rub and play with them, whether the animal has ever seen you before or not, they're stockyard bound. As far as adding milk, I've never had any issues with milk production.

 

[Ky hills]

I used to have registered Charolais, and at that time I often heard people say that Charolais will cross good with about anything. If these are commercial nonregistered cows I would absolutely advise crossing them with a black bull. I like Angus x Charolais and they are usually pretty well received at the market. If you are concerned with too much moderation of size from Angus, then maybe black Simmental would be an option. I have had some nice Hereford x Charolais calves in the past, but the markets here in KY dock red cattle,

 

[A.J.]

Ive got a neighbor with char and char x cows. One herd runs Black Gelbvieh bull and one herd with Limo. He said overall he likes the Char x Limo cross the best for the muscle and pounds at weaning, but the Gelbvieh sired ones make some good replacements too since they tend to milk a little better. Both crosses appear to make some
Nice calves. Char x Angus cross sells good here as well. Usually right behind the blacks.

 

[Little Joe]

I have a neighbor that ran a horned hereford on his charolais for a while, nice big calves. I bought some from him to finish out, finished out nice.

 

[Silver]

Black d'Aquitaine. Mostly because I'm curious.

 

[Lucky_P]

I'll be different, too. Black Braunvieh, if they have to be black; otherwise, traditional color Braunvieh.

 

[Warren Allison]

I have basically 3 herds of cattle. 2 herds are completely purebred Charolais and the 3rd herd is 80% pure Charolais. (we had some Ayrshire/Charolais and some Ayrshire/Angus cross heifers that we retained when we quit milking). We've never brought in any females, only bulls, and bulls only since we quit using AI. My question is, what would you cross these cattle with? I personally don't like to crossbreed, however I really don't like getting docked a guaranteed $.35-$.40 when I pull in with a load of calves. And that's regardless of stockyard or cattle buy-up station. I've thought about a black balancer, sim-angus, or if I could find one close enough, a black Charolais. I know that last one will open a can of worms,but I'm still intrigued. I just can't find any close to east TN. I'm still a die hard Charolais man. I'd like to cross for a while then go back purebred for a while then back to crossbreed, etc. I've got a thought about retaining the crossed heifers and finding another black bull, for adding essentially another herd, but that's another topic. What's your recommendations? Thanks in advance

I was never a fan of Charolais, or Simmental, since they first came to GA in the early 70's ( back when SimmentaL were red & white) Too many people bred them to their Angus ( old time small framed angus) and Herefords, and lost too many cows and/or calves. So, I just never fooled with either of them through the years . However, as I have posted before, In the 2000's I started getting some F1 Brahma x Chianina cows from a customer, and I bred these to polled Charolais bulls. Best momma cows I ever had, and you could just about sit on the porch, look out in the pasture and see those calves grow! Might have gotten docked a few cents per pound on the steers, because they were white, but my God, a 5-6 month old was bigger than the 7-8 month olds that most people wean . And the heifers brought top dollar from people wanting them for replacements! The few I kept, I bred back to a Charolais, and most of THEIR heifers were sold before I weaned them. But, breeding Charolais cows to a Chi/Brahma bull would probably have different results. ( these were MINE, gcreekrch).

And a few months ago, I delivered a Brangus bull ( NOT mine, gbreekrch) to a place down in middle Ga, that I recognized as a registered Charolais farm I had been to in the 80s. His son and grandson were now breeding their ( I assume commercial) Charolais to registered Red Angus bulls. They retain all heifers, and their pasture was full of these polled, light red, to orange-ish blond cows, every bit as tall and big as their Charolais dams. They breed these Char-Red angus cows to a PP polled, BB black Simmental bull, and get black polled calves ,that sell for top dollar, both steers and heifers. The first calf, they breed these Char-RA to a Brangus , then black Simmental the rest of the time. Again, I am biassed toward black, but those Char-RA cows were as fine a looking cows as I have ever seen. and I damned sure wouldn't kick any of them out of My pasture. Nor any Chi-Brahmas. I have to go down close to this place for a few days in April, and I want to go by there then, because there will be some calves out of the Char-RA cows by the Brangus and Black Simmental bulls. There will be some RA- Char calves on the ground too. I will get some pics of both then.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I was never a fan of Charolais, or Simmental, since the fIrst came to GA in the 70's ( back when SimmentaL were red & white) Too many people bred them to their Angus ( old time small framed angus) and Herefords, and lost too many cows and/or calves. So,I

I wore out a set chains pulling pallet headed calves.
That's one bull that will never set foot on my place. Just can't get over the nightmares.
Now to be fair that was back in the early 70's, we had never heard of an epd. Those 1000 lb salt grass cows couldn't handle them.
Never seen a squeeze chute with a headgate a rope snugged up tree was how we did it then.
I like the cows and their crosses.

 

[MarkH]

Hogfarmer,

What breed to take a char cross cow to depends on what you want to improve in your cowherd. I have seen great results when using Simangus Limiflex, Hereford, Red Angus, Black Angus and many other breeds. The main thing is to match the cow or heifer to your management and females.
By the way, if you are serious about a Black Charolais Hendrik Rasmussen has couple for sale at his upcoming bull sale: https://issuu.com/t-bar-c/docs/hej_catalogue_catalogue_2021_web?fr=sN2NlNDQ2MjA2Mw. Here is a list of Canadian Bulls sales that you might like to browse through: https://charolaisbanner.com/newcbsite/catalogues-videos/. From that group Rawes has the biggest bull sale with a healthy sale average. They have pushing for high growth and carcass with one heard sire having a + 150 yearling weight EPD. The Char cross cow is common thing in Western Canada and the breeders aren't shy to tell you what works or not depending on your goals.

 

[Warren Allison]

I wore out a set chains pulling pallet headed calves.
That's one bull that will never set foot on my place. Just can't get over the nightmares.
Now to be fair that was back in the early 70's, we had never heard of an epd. Those 1000 lb salt grass cows couldn't handle them.
Never seen a squeeze chute with a headgate a rope snugged up tree was how we did it then.
I like the cows and their crosses.

Yep. Same around here ( Ga). When the Charolais and Simmental first showed up around here, everyone had Angus, Hereford and black baldy cows, that did good to reach 1000lbs. People went nuts buying Charloais and Simmental bulls, and a lot of folks became experts at pulling calves! Now, about 1975, my brother got a Hereford- Charolais show heifer ( looked like a yellow and white Hereford) and his best friend got a Char- Simmental show heifer, that looked like a yellow and white Simmental. My grand daddy bough them both at the end of the fair season, and turned them out with his other cows and Angus bulls. Both raised very good calves ( this was before CAB) for many years, and I don't recall any of them having any calving problems. I never fooled with either kind of bull until this century (That sounds old, huh?) when I started getting those Chianina x Brahma cows. I bred them to polled Charolais bulls, and no problems at all. The bulls I used were slicker-haired and a LOT smaller-headed than those first ones in the 70's though.

 

[gcreekrch]

I was never a fan of Charolais, or Simmental, since they first came to GA in the early 70's ( back when SimmentaL were red & white) Too many people bred them to their Angus ( old time small framed angus) and Herefords, and lost too many cows and/or calves. So, I just never fooled with either of them through the years . However, as I have posted before, In the 2000's I started getting some F1 Brahma x Chianina cows from a customer, and I bred these to polled Charolais bulls. Best momma cows I ever had, and you could just about sit on the porch, look out in the pasture and see those calves grow! Might have gotten docked a few cents per pound on the steers, because they were white, but my God, a 5-6 month old was bigger than the 7-8 month olds that most people wean . And the heifers brought top dollar from people wanting them for replacements! The few I kept, I bred back to a Charolais, and most of THEIR heifers were sold before I weaned them. But, breeding Charolais cows to a Chi/Brahma bull would probably have different results. ( these were MINE, gcreekrch).

And a few months ago, I delivered a Brangus bull ( NOT mine, gbreekrch) to a place down in middle Ga, that I recognized as a registered Charolais farm I had been to in the 80s. His son and grandson were now breeding their ( I assume commercial) Charolais to registered Red Angus bulls. They retain all heifers, and their pasture was full of these polled, light red, to orange-ish blond cows, every bit as tall and big as their Charolais dams. They breed these Char-Red angus cows to a PP polled, BB black Simmental bull, and get black polled calves ,that sell for top dollar, both steers and heifers. The first calf, they breed these Char-RA to a Brangus , then black Simmental the rest of the time. Again, I am biassed toward black, but those Char-RA cows were as fine a looking cows as I have ever seen. and I damned sure wouldn't kick any of them out of My pasture. Nor any Chi-Brahmas. I have to go down close to this place for a few days in April, and I want to go by there then, because there will be some calves out of the Char-RA cows by the Brangus and Black Simmental bulls. There will be some RA- Char calves on the ground too. I will get some pics of both then.

I agree with you on putting Red Angus bulls on white cows, Horned Hereford bulls too. One of the ranches we own took two runs to buy, the old, original owner had a herd of white cows that I had the same plans for but they wouldn't accept our offer. The investment banker that offered more money sold to us before he was foreclosed on four years later for a lot less than he paid. He had sold the cows off so we didn't get to do the trial. I still prefer Charolais as a terminal sire here.1500 lb cows don't pay in our experience.
I was a pretty young kid when my Dad's neighbor AIed some cows Simmental, a bull named Baron. Lots of pulls on mature cows. He lost the inclination to stay Simmental in a few years. Went back to his Hereford x Shorthorn cows, later replacing the Shorthorns with Red Angus and a more acceptable calf for our markets. I still remember going up there after school and milking those bad bag cows out so the calves could suck.......
Can still see some of the cows like it was this afternoon. Been almost 50 years!

 

[Warren Allison]

I agree with you on putting Red Angus bulls on white cows, Horned Hereford bulls too. One of the ranches we own took two runs to buy, the old, original owner had a herd of white cows that I had the same plans for but they wouldn't accept our offer. The investment banker that offered more money sold to us before he was foreclosed on four years later for a lot less than he paid. He had sold the cows off so we didn't get to do the trial. I still prefer Charolais as a terminal sire here.1500 lb cows don't pay in our experience.
I was a pretty young kid when my Dad's neighbor AIed some cows Simmental, a bull named Baron. Lots of pulls on mature cows. He lost the inclination to stay Simmental in a few years. Went back to his Hereford x Shorthorn cows, later replacing the Shorthorns with Red Angus and a more acceptable calf for our markets. I still remember going up there after school and milking those bad bag cows out so the calves could suck.......
Can still see some of the cows like it was this afternoon. Been almost 50 years!

Yep. I think these guys have a good plan. On another thread, @Ky hills (and I think you were on it too..it was about how here in America there are separate Angus registries for red and black.) commented that the Red angus has retained more of the original Angus characteristics, than the blacks have since they all of a sudden got longer, taller and longer-legged in the 80's. They get about as much for their red steers as they would smokies. These RA-Char have the carcass quality for CAB, so when they breed them to the black Simms, ..which also lends marbling.. these black calves get the certified angus beef label easily. Same with the calves from the Char-RA heifers bred to the Brangus.

I can see where the larger frame cows might not pay off for you up there, with the shorter grazing season, and all. I made a LOT of money with those Chianina-Holstrein cows bred to Brangus, and those Chianina-Brahmas bred to Charolais, and these were 2000 lb cows. Or close to it. A big part of that was I paid nothing or next to nothing for them, I admit. Probably the most profitable, was the Criollo cows bred to Angus bulls. Again, the cows were cheap, and weaned off black calves near as big as beef cows bred to Angus. But hell, you could keep them on pastures that a goat would starve on, and 4 of them ate about what 2-3 beef cows did. Or maybe what 1 of those giants ate. Now days I see Corrientes, etc. for sale with Charloais calves, or advertised bred to Charolais bulls, a lot. Not as much as bred to Angus or Brangus, but obviously people aren't having trouble with these little cows and Charolais bulls.

 

[Caustic Burno]

The Brahman genetics in the Charolais created a lot of problems over the English breeds as well. Being they were bred up using Brahman and Charolais. That DNA once in the woodpile never leaves. There is a well documented phenomenon that Brahman bulls over Hereford give behemoth bull calves and overall larger calves. This phenomenon created only occurred in Brahman/ English crosses. It was reversed in English/ Brahman crosses.

 

[gcreekrch]

Several Charolais bulls here with birthweights between 80 and 95 lbs. a couple at 100. 130 Char x calves last year with only one easy pull.

 

[Warren Allison]

The Brahman genetics in the Charolais created a lot of problems over the English breeds as well. Being they were bred up using Brahman and Charolais. That DNA once in the woodpile never leaves. There is a well documented phenomenon that Brahman bulls over Hereford give behemoth bull calves and overall larger calves. This phenomenon created only occurred in Brahman/ English crosses. It was reversed in English/ Brahman crosses.

I didn't know this has been documented, but I have witnessed it. When my client was breeding the F! 2-way crosses, to eventually get the Longhorn/ Brahma/Chianina 3-way crosses for bucking bulls, I noticed that the Longhorn cows bred to Brahma bulls, seemed to have bigger calves than the Brahma cows bred to the Longhorn bull. Couldn't really tell the difference much after they were grown, though. The guy crossing his Brangus with Black Herefords, is also experimenting with creating a Black Braford. He bred about 30 reg Brahmas to a Black Hereford bull, and about 8-10 of the Black Hereford cows to a Brahma bull. They gonna start calving at the end of this month, and I am making a mental note right now to see how the Br x BH calves compare to the BH x Br calves. All of my life around here, I saw many a herd of Angus and Hereford cows with a brahma bull in with them, but don't recall ever seeing a Brahma herd with Angus or Hereford bulls. I guess I assumed that folks thought it was easier to handle a herd of "regular" cows, and just one of those "wild and crazy Brahmas", than a whole herd of wild and crazy Brahma cows. Or, they already had these Angus and Hereford and black baldy cows, and decided to try a brahma bull. But this phenomenon, whether it was known and intentional or not, probably also played a role in the brahma bull x beef cow cross. rather than the other way, as well.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Warren a ton of research was done by David Riley PhD TAMU.
He went deep into birthweight anomalies, hybrid vigor and the crosses that maximize it.
I am looking for his presentation materials from a TAMU workshop I attended years ago.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Warren for some reason I am too stupid to get the link to paste.
PM me your email and I will send it to you.
I called Dr. Riley this afternoon and he sent it to me as a pdf file.

 

[Peace]

file:///C:/Users/MICHAE~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Distributional_characterizations_and_testing_for_d.pdf

Is the above what you're talking about? Need to copy the above text and load into a new window.

Maybe something else in here???

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/D-G-Riley-39273033