Peace
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Thanks...been looking for studies like some of those he's done in the link in my above post. Much appreciated
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Thanks...been looking for studies like some of those he's done in the link in my above post. Much appreciated
Caustic Burno
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Thanks for sending that, @Caustic Burno . I read it through a couple of times. I wonder if this Brahma phenomenon ever presents in F! crosses? Would an F1 Braford bull bred to an Angus cow, result in bigger calves ,especially bull calves, than an Angus bull bred to F1 Braford cows? I don't recall ever seeing this, but, I have never thought about it and looked for it, either. Then too, you wouldn' t see a lot of people using an F1 bull, either. Or how about in crosses with one of the 3/8ths Brahma breeds...Braford, Brangus, Santa Gertrudis or Beefmaster? I wonder if you bred, say, Charolais, Angus or Hereford cows to one of these bulls, would the calves be bigger than breeding a Charolais, Angus or Hereford bull to cows of any of these 4 breeds? I have seen these crosses, both ways, a lot in my life. But, never in sufficient quantities, or over a long enough time. And again, I never paid any attention to it, or even thought to look for it.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
I have never put a F-1 bull on anything but the trailer.
The hybrid vigor using a F-1 Brimmer girl will put up 20% more pounds on the terminal calf out of a 3 way cross.
Again this is the maximum less or more crosses weaning weights decreases.
I have ran most every kind of bull on this journey, I have not seen the phenomenon out of stabilized composites like Brangus ,Bradford and etc.
What I have seen is the hybrid vigor reflects the original composites.
I would have to go back and check, I know Hereford x Brahman is the maximum two way with Brahman.
If I remember right SH x Brahman was the least of the English breeds.
The Continentals weren't as good as the English.
I hear ya on the F1 bulls and the trailer! And that is only when they somehow escaped being a F1 steer!
So with F1 Charbray or Simbrah, you haven't seen any notice able difference, calf-wise, in Br x Char or Simm, vs Char or Simm x Brahma?
The only Braham Continental F1s I ever fooled with much, were those Brahma/ Chianina cows. When he was making that Chianina/Brahman/ Longhorn composite, he bred some of his Chianina cows to brahmas, and AI'ed a lot of Brahma cows to his Chianina bull. I never paid any attention to whether the Br x Chi calves were bigger than the Chi- Br ones. When he started selling off these Chianina./Brahma cows to me, they were grown...any where from 2nd to 4th or 5th calf cows. They were all as tall as the Chianina cows he had, and pretty much uniform in size, just a lot beefier, especially in the back end. So I don't know which ones were Br x Chi and which ones were Chi x Br. I had that info at the time, because he'd give a copy of the Chi papers and the Brahma papers with each one. but I never thought about comparing which cross the cows were. But you are right on about that "high bread vinegar" as Murray calls it, when I bred them to Charolais bulls. Damn!!
Being in Texas, have you fooled much with Longhorn/Brahma crosses? Just wondered if that Brahma phenomenon was apparent in that cross as well?
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
I don't ever recall anyone playing with that cross now you mentioned it. On the LH's there is just too much dock on them here, secondly you can't get rid of the chrome.
Neighbor has some LHXAngus F-1's and gets killed on the 3/4 Angus X LH cross calves.
They look good and we all know they look good when the hide comes off.
Everyone of those calves end up with a white tail switch or skunk line and he gets hammered. Along with 3/4 of them have horn knobs.
Longhorn color gene along with the African horn gene
neither play by the rules.
With today's prices you definitely have to get front pasture bids not back forty.
Neighbor has some LHXAngus F-1's and gets killed on the 3/4 Angus X LH cross calves.
They look good and we all know they look good when the hide comes off.
Everyone of those calves end up with a white tail switch or skunk line and he gets hammered. Along with 3/4 of them have horn knobs.
Longhorn color gene along with the African horn gene
neither play by the rules.
With today's prices you definitely have to get front pasture bids not back forty.
Oh, yeah. Between the horns, ears and color, the calves wouldn't bring sh*t around here, though ears aren't so bad on black, polled calves. Since the 80's, though, I have met several ranchers while trading horses and cattle, in south Ga, south Ala, and Fla, that love this cross for momma cows. No calving problems, heat, insect, disease and parasite resistance. And good milkers that raised big ole calves, mostly Angus sired. I don't recall if I saw many horned or scurred calves, though. There well may have been. Most of the time, if I saw anybody doing this cross, it was a longhorn bull put on Brahmas. I guess if I had been a breeder of this cross, I probably would rather have fooled with a herd of Brahmas and 1 LH bull, than a herd of LHs my self, because of working pens, head gates etc. I figured that out west, there may have been more LH cows that someone had put Brahma bulls on, and wondered if you had witnessed the phenomenon in this cross, too.
I didn't think that you found the African horned gene in purebred, registered LH cattle. I do know, though, that since the 80's ( and maybe before, I dunno) people would breed LHs and Corrientes, too, with Ankole-Watusi. I guess for looks, the horn shape on these crosses was never conducive to roping, IMO. Back in the 90's I had built up a herd of Corriente, Longhorn, PIney Woods and Fla Crackers.. and various crosses of these, that I bred to Corriente bulls for roping/dogging stock. Toward the end of the 90's, when team roping around here was waning, and penning-sorting became the new fad, I started breeding them to Angus and Brangus bulls. to get penning/sorting cattle. The calves were all black and polled, except for the ones from 3 Watusi-LH and Watusi- Corrientes I had. One of them was 1/2 Corriente, 1/4 LH and 1/4 Watusi. All 3 of these threw horned calves, and some had some color to them., best I recall. I figured it was the AHG, from the Watusi, and I got rid of them. For team penning, you want all 30 to be the same color, or all 30 different colors. You wouldn't want,. for instance, 26 black, 2 Charolais and 2 Herefords in the pen. Or 28 polled and 2 horned, even with all 3 the same color. I even had a half-dozen Corriente- Jerseies ( due to my generosity and a dumb-ass neighbor, but that's another story) . and they always raised big ole polled black calves, too. I'd time it to where these penning/sorting calves were born in November, so I could wean them and start using them in March. When things slowed down in after December, I'd sell those steers and heifers, and they'd be as big as any other commercial Angus or Angus -beef cow crosses, and bring about the same as these would that time a year. Maybe a few cents less, but seeing as how you'd made money supplying the cattle, and the fact that those cows had cost $200-$300..$400 tops, I probably made more on those calves than any other kind I have fooled with.
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He had about 15 or so Chi-angus cows that were bred to the 2 Brahma bulls. It was hard to determine the phenomenon effect, though, as these Chi-Angus cows were varying percentage Angus vs Chianina. The largest calf of these 15 was actually a heifer, out of a Chi-Angus cow that was over 65% Chianina, while some of the others were only 3/8th to 5/16ths Chiangus. The calves out of the Brahma cows sired by the Chi-Angus bull, were more uniform.
@Caustic Burno . I spent some time down at my client's this week, and the Brahma herd bred to Black Hereford and Chi-Angus bulls have all come in. Love the look of those f1 Black Brafords! His 20 Black Hereford cows that he bred to 2 Brahma bulls also have come in, and YES, those calves were bigger than the BH calves out of the Brahma cows. 8 of the 20 are bull calves, and the foremen said they were probably 10 lbs bigger than the 12 heifer calves at birth. They didn't band these 8, either. He said they were toying with the idea of going ahead and breeding for some 5/8th BH, 3/8th Brahma true Brafords. Those 2 BR bulls were both totally different bloodlines than the Br cows, and each other. And, the 20 BH cows were not closely related to the BH bulls he used on the Brahma cows, so they'd need some of those 8 f1 bulls, if they decided to pursue that route. My guess is, if they can work through the UBB they will probably pursue this project, but if they can't, they won't fool with trying to create yet another registry. And that's ok...down here, at least f1 Brafords have a reputation for being dang excellent momma cows. People could buy commercial f1 black Brafords, and use all the new black bulls, like black Simmental, Simm-Angus, black Limosines and Gelbeivs, etc, for a terminal cross that would produce black calves.
He had about 15 or so Chi-angus cows that were bred to the 2 Brahma bulls. It was hard to determine the phenomenon effect, though, as these Chi-Angus cows were varying percentage Angus vs Chianina. The largest calf of these 15 was actually a heifer, out of a Chi-Angus cow that was over 65% Chianina, while some of the others were only 3/8th to 5/16ths Chiangus. The calves out of the Brahma cows sired by the Chi-Angus bull, were more uniform.
