What to look for in a bull?

[Frankie]

I appreciate all this info. I had seen a couple I like the looks of but they are not registered yet. One has estimated numbers of CED +8, BW +1.4, WW +27, YW +62, M +16. The bull I get will not be a strictly heifer bull, just about 10 in about 4 yrs. time. The rest will be grown cows.

A lot of things should go into buying a bull other than numbers. But if you're selling your calves at weaning, I'd look for a bull with a better WW EPD. This bull is below breed average for an Angus bull. Personally, I'd give up some BW for better WW. But don't just look at his BW EPD, look at his sire and dam's, too. Good luck....

 

[Frankie]

Aero said:

Frankie:
you technically should be able to guess a certain weight for 2 parents directly from EPDs. this will have a high rate of error, but its the best guess. if you can know what the average weight during an EPD baseline year, you can use it to guess what the real measurement should be. this will almost 100% be wrong because of environmental factors, accuracy of EPDs, creep vs non-creep, etc. but you technicallycan guess a real number for BW, WW, YW, etc.

You can guess all you want, but you're not using EPDs properly. EPDs should be used to compare one breeding animal (of the same breed) to another, not to try to guess the weight of the calves at any age. Angus breeders have spent years and millions of dollars creating the Angus EPD database, but EPDs aren't worth a plug nickel if not used properly.

 

[ollie']

Aero said:

Frankie:
you technically should be able to guess a certain weight for 2 parents directly from EPDs. this will have a high rate of error, but its the best guess. if you can know what the average weight during an EPD baseline year, you can use it to guess what the real measurement should be. this will almost 100% be wrong because of environmental factors, accuracy of EPDs, creep vs non-creep, etc. but you technicallycan guess a real number for BW, WW, YW, etc.

You can guess all you want, but you're not using EPDs properly. EPDs should be used to compare one breeding animal (of the same breed) to another, not to try to guess the weight of the calves at any age. Angus breeders have spent years and millions of dollars creating the Angus EPD database, but EPDs aren't worth a plug nickel if not used properly.

Frankie, I feel your pain. :stop:

 

[la4angus]

You can guess all you want, but you're not using EPDs properly. EPDs should be used to compare one breeding animal (of the same breed) to another, not to try to guess the weight of the calves at any age. Angus breeders have spent years and millions of dollars creating the Angus EPD database, but EPDs aren't worth a plug nickel if not used properly.

And there is less than 20% of the people that try to use EPD's, use them correctly.

 

[plbcattle]

Q: what to look for in a Bull
A: make sure he is Black. lol

 

[msscamp]

Q: what to look for in a Bull
A: make sure he is Black. lol

I figure you are joking on this comment, but just in case your not - If you go into it with that kind of attitude you are closing yourself off to some great bulls. Black has it's place, but it's not the be all, do all, end all. Just my thoughts.

 

[Aero]

Frankie:
you are completely right. i wasnt saying you should, i was just saying it is possible.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I hadn't heard anything about the weather affecting the BW's before. How does that take affect? If the same herd, in Alabama, were moved up north, to Indiana, I would get a bigger calf at birth. Am I understanding right?

Yes, that is exactly correct IF they have a normal cold climate.
There has been several research on this fact. They took a southern herd & sent 1/2 up north & bred & calved them out. Not sure but I think there was about 10# difference in avg wts.
If we have a COLDER than normal year, our avg weights are higher than our normal weights.

 

[RosieRanch]

Yes, that is exactly correct IF they have a normal cold climate.
There has been several research on this fact. They took a southern herd & sent 1/2 up north & bred & calved them out. Not sure but I think there was about 10# difference in avg wts.
If we have a COLDER than normal year, our avg weights are higher than our normal weights.

So if I bought a bull from a colder climate, he may throw smaller calves in a warmer climate. Would you feel comfortable using a BW 4-5 bull from north, say NY, in KY? I have seen a few bulls out of Leachman Prompter #10796576. I really liked one.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

NO - EPD's are based on MANY animal data - not just that one individual animal. As that bull starts producing offspring, the offspring data starts changing his EPD's to be more accurate - but EPD's are based on ALL ancestors & progeny.

If you were looking at a bull that had a decent EPD for birth weight, but he himself had a heavier actual birth weight and was born in the North - you might consider the fact that environment had a lot to do with the additional weight.

John Pollak, Cornell U (in charge of all Simmental EPD data) says we castrate too many good bulls based on birth weight of the calf, that we should wait and see what his EPD's say and decide if he is bull quality by CE epd's.
I told him, that was all well & good, but I'm not about to "convince" someone to buy my 110# BW bull because his EPD's say he is going to be easy calving - than as soon as the buyer has one hard calving calf - I'm to blame!! Not worth my reputation.

 

[MikeC]

John Pollak, Cornell U (in charge of all Simmental EPD data) says we castrate too many good bulls based on birth weight of the calf, that we should wait and see what his EPD's say and decide if he is bull quality by CE epd's.

I agree with this fellow to a point. I have actually had commercial (about 3 -if memory serves me correct) bull buyers call me and ask me to save any higher BW/EPD bulls that I might have normally culled. They are all still in business and the highest acheivers in the state for weaning weights!

BW can be influenced by environmental factors and has much to do with the cows eating habits while pregnant.

If we keep breeding for low BW's we will get into trouble later on with growth - thus having smaller heifers with smaller pelvic dimensions making calving much harder in the future.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

My personal feelings are that if we aren't pulling a calf every now and then we are not pushing the envelope on growth factors.

 

[cypressfarms]

John Pollak, Cornell U (in charge of all Simmental EPD data) says we castrate too many good bulls based on birth weight of the calf, that we should wait and see what his EPD's say and decide if he is bull quality by CE epd's.

I agree with this fellow to a point. I have actually had commercial (about 3 -if memory serves me correct) bull buyers call me and ask me to save any higher BW/EPD bulls that I might have normally culled. They are all still in business and the highest acheivers in the state for weaning weights!

BW can be influenced by environmental factors and has much to do with the cows eating habits while pregnant.

If we keep breeding for low BW's we will get into trouble later on with growth - thus having smaller heifers with smaller pelvic dimensions making calving much harder in the future.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

My personal feelings are that if we aren't pulling a calf every now and then we are not pushing the envelope on growth factors.

Mike, I agree with you about pushing the envelope. If you have a cow that has calved her third calf, she should be very low risk of calving trouble. I forgot the study, but the percentage of calving difficulty drops big time by a cows third calf. That's when I would push the envelope. Of if I had some of caustic's tigers (bigger cows), assuming that his cows are 4 or 5 years old, I wouldn't hesitate to breed to a higher BW bull. I would only think you need to take it easy on heifers, and maybe their second calf. Then, assuming they've had no problems, their fair game.

 

[Brandonm2]

I would rather have live calves than "push the envelope" and I don't really care to be the state leader for weaning weight. If I have to pull calves out of mature cows, I am selling the bull at the very next sale and probably am not going to ever buy anything from that breeder again. Jeane is absolutely right that she would get blamed if I am spending hours pulling her bull's calves, calling the vet, and me freaking out about cows calving without my assistance and wandering around at nights with a spotlight. That bull would be bologna, months before the first calf was ever weaned.

 

[RosieRanch]

Thanks for the clarification on that BW epd. I'm still learning.

How much difference would you see between a BW 2 & 4? Could a BW 4 with a CE 6+ still be a good size calf but small enough for a good size heifer?

 

[MikeC]

I would rather have live calves than "push the envelope" and I don't really care to be the state leader for weaning weight. If I have to pull calves out of mature cows, I am selling the bull at the very next sale and probably am not going to ever buy anything from that breeder again. Jeane is absolutely right that she would get blamed if I am spending hours pulling her bull's calves, calling the vet, and me freaking out about cows calving without my assistance and wandering around at nights with a spotlight. That bull would be bologna, months before the first calf was ever weaned.

Brandon, Sometimes it isn't the bulls fault at all when a heifer can't have a calf on her own the first time..........Some heifers just have smaller pelvic areas and are smaller than required to calve naturally. If some producer had small heifers and had to pull the 70 lb. calves would you still cull the bull?

If you have "NEVER" pulled a calf you are probably the only cattleman I have ever seen who has not done so. Helping a 1st calf heifer is not a sin, by any means.

 

[Dusty Britches]

I just can't take it anymore - I have to say something -

What you look for in a bull depends upon your production goals.

For example:
A producer who wants to raise commercial calves to sell for beef will look for higher than average weaning weights (among other traits).

A producer who wants to raise replacement heifers may look for calving ease paternal bulls that may have higher or lower milking ability, weaning weights, or yearling weights. It depends upon what he/ she wants to add to their herd.

If you want to raise calves just to show the kids / grandkids and to sell and are an absentee owner, look for calving ease direct bulls (among other traits).


It all depends upon your individual situation and goals. Do you understand what I'm getting at? What is your production goal?

 

[cypressfarms]

Thank you dusty,

Nothing like someone blowing some steam off. Well said

 

[Brandonm2]

I would rather have live calves than "push the envelope" and I don't really care to be the state leader for weaning weight. If I have to pull calves out of mature cows, I am selling the bull at the very next sale and probably am not going to ever buy anything from that breeder again. Jeane is absolutely right that she would get blamed if I am spending hours pulling her bull's calves, calling the vet, and me freaking out about cows calving without my assistance and wandering around at nights with a spotlight. That bull would be bologna, months before the first calf was ever weaned.

Brandon, Sometimes it isn't the bulls fault at all when a heifer can't have a calf on her own the first time..........Some heifers just have smaller pelvic areas and are smaller than required to calve naturally. If some producer had small heifers and had to pull the 70 lb. calves would you still cull the bull?

If you have "NEVER" pulled a calf you are probably the only cattleman I have ever seen who has not done so. Helping a 1st calf heifer is not a sin, by any means.

Read my quote again....."If I have to pull calves out of mature cows..." I was talking about mature cows. I didn't say anything about first calf heifers. Obviously, I have assisted first calf heifers before. If a four or five year old cows have to be heavily assisted on a normal presentation that is ALL the bull's fault (and the fault of the dummy that bought that bull). I like your Chars in a crossbreeding system; but no Char bull will EVER go any where near any heifer owned by me. The birth weights are simply too high. Dittoe with the Brahman, the Maine Anjou, most Shorthorns, many Simmies, most Lims, and even Herefords with really high birth weight EPDs (+5&up).

 

[RosieRanch]

I just can't take it anymore - I have to say something -

What you look for in a bull depends upon your production goals.

It all depends upon your individual situation and goals. Do you understand what I'm getting at? What is your production goal?

Like I said before:

I am wanting to be able to keep a couple good heifers for replacements while maintaining good growth at the auctions.

Another way to put it is as you might say I am a producer that has a goal of commercial calves and if I see a good calf that I like, I would consider keeping for a replacement. Also, I want some eye appeal and some structure/soundness in my herd. Do you get my opinion now?

 

[cypressfarms]

Rosie,

Your shooting some bullits there for 14 posts!!!

In Dusty's defense:

Sometimes you watch a post from the sideline and you see it going back and forth like a ping pong match (at least in his/her opinion). While we're all cattle people at heart, we all have differing levels of taking this before we feel that you just have to jump in and say something. (my own personal peave is the talk of black herefords. It never fails, after some time, someone will post and say something about a herd of black herefords that they saw, and like them) RHhhhhhh, just thinking of it makes me mad.