What to look for in a bull?

[RosieRanch]

I have been reading back through some of posts about some bulls. I have a few cows and about a half dozen heifers. I have been thinking about buying a angus bull. The epd numbers are a little confusing. What kind of numbers would you consider for an all around bull? What kind price range would be good for a young bull? Would a yearling bull be good for about 7 cows/heifers this fall?

 

[msscamp]

I have been reading back through some of posts about some bulls. I have a few cows and about a half dozen heifers. I have been thinking about buying a angus bull. The epd numbers are a little confusing. What kind of numbers would you consider for an all around bull? What kind price range would be good for a young bull? Would a yearling bull be good for about 7 cows/heifers this fall?

I can't help you with the EPD's as I'm still trying to figure out how to read them. Price range is going to depend on the bull, his conformation and bloodlines. I personally would be leary of using a yearling bull even with 7 cows/heifers as the chances for injury are greater and he really hasn't hit maturity yet, so you don't really know what you might be getting in the way of calves - there is a little more to it than just EPD's. Just my thoughts and they could be way off base.

 

[Scotty]

For heifers i would say BW >2.0. YW you want as high as posible. WW the same. Idividual performance is important also because the offspring will tend to imulate the sire. not always. Price on Reg. Angus bulls around here go from 1500 to the moon.


Scotty

 

[Scotty]

Also the usuals apply. Good structure, feet and legs, and a good attitude. Don't get a terd splitter.


Scotty

 

[cypressfarms]

I have been thinking about buying a angus bull. The epd numbers are a little confusing. What kind of numbers would you consider for an all around bull?

Rosie, the easiest way to understand birth weight EPD's are that the number is a comparison to the breed average. For example, if you bought a angus bull with a BW EPD of 2.0, he would likely (this is not an exact certainty) produce calves that weighed 2 pounds heavier than the average angus bull. Sorry to disagree Scotty, but I wouldn't put an angus bull with GREATER than 2 BW on heifers. Maybe you meant less than???

Anyway Rosie, for heifers, you normally want a low birth weight bull, so the heifers don't have calving difficulty.

If you want a bull to produce replacement heifers, then milk EPD's become more important; the milk epd expresses how many pounds of calf, at weaning age, will the bull's daughter have in comparison to the breed.

WW and YW are pretty straightforward.

BUT MSSCAMP is right; epd's are only part. Look at my post of a bull that I bought (a.k.a hatchet butt - brangus); his epd's are great, but his butt is not.

 

[txag]

Rosie, the easiest way to understand birth weight EPD's are that the number is a comparison to the breed average. For example, if you bought a angus bull with a BW EPD of 2.0, he would likely (this is not an exact certainty) produce calves that weighed 2 pounds heavier than the average angus bull.

epd's are comparisons between animals, not a comparison between an animal and the average.

a bull with a +2 BW EPD will sire calves that are 2 lbs heavier than a bull with a BW EPD of 0. 0 is not necessarily the average BW EPD for angus.

 

[cypressfarms]

txag, correctioon noted.

He's right, it's better to compare two bulls of the same breed to know what to expect. Originally EPD's were designed to compare to the average of the breed. Epd's are changed frequently (most of the time yearly), but I believe using the 0 base would be simpler and more helpful for people to understand.

Either way, I still belive that using a BW greater than 2 for an angus bull on heifers may cause problems with calving.

 

[Scotty]

2.0 in Angus is still a small calve. I had a cow bred to a 5.4 BW bull and got a 74 lb calve. If the heafers are developed properly and are in the correct body shape there is not reson they can't have a 65 lb calve. Which is the average for my bull BW. He has a BW EPD of 2.0. Not all bulls will be this way. But like I said the developement of the heifer has alot to od with it. Some body will come along and tell of the horror story they had with the negative BW bull on heifers. Still I feel the majority of true breeding females will do fine with a 2.0.


Scotty

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes, EPD's are designed to compare one bull to the other. BUT, if you don't know what the breed average is - than you may be comparing both bulls with EXTREME high's or lows. You have to know the base average first.
Don't know what Angus breed average BW EPD is - but if it was +2 and the breed average birth weight was 70#, than you would know that a bull with a +7 BW EPD is EXPECTED to have 75# calves (5# heavier than breed average). I know by right you shouldn't figure it that way, but it gives you a better idea of what you are working with.
And breed averages and individual animals EPD's change each year (Simmental's change 2X year spring & fall) each time they re-calculate all the data that is turned in throughout the year. So you should be sure to know what year you are comparing.
If you are looking at a registration paper that was printed back 5 years ago, that individual's EPD's may be drastically changed.

 

[dun]

Don't just look at the individuals EPDs. Look back at his ancestors. If you breed a plus 10 bull to a minus 10 cow, the individuals EPDs will be around zero. But until he gets some of his offspring on the ground and registered you won;t know what to expect.

dun

 

[txag]

Don't know what Angus breed average BW EPD is - but if it was +2 and the breed average birth weight was 70#, than you would know that a bull with a +7 BW EPD is EXPECTED to have 75# calves (5# heavier than breed average). I know by right you shouldn't figure it that way, but it gives you a better idea of what you are working with.

in theory, that should work. the only problem with this is that the breed average may not be indicative of each individual area. birthweights up north are almost always higher than they are in the south. a +7 BW EPD bull may throw 85 lbs calves in our environment, but throw 100 lb calves up north.

from the AHA sire summary:

"It is important to remember that these values are not relative to a breed average birth weight; rather they are relative to the production system the bulls would be used in."

For example, bull A has a BW EPD of +3 & bull B has a BW EPD of +8, and sire B was throwing calves with a 90 lb average birthweight in your cowherd, you would expect calves from sire A to weigh, on average, 85 lbs, when used across the same group of cows.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Absolutely true. Environment effects birth weight more than any other trait, I believe. Same location, can be drastically affected by a colder than normal year. Colder = higher birth weights.
But, I just wanted to point out that even though they are designed to be compared between bulls, you still need to be aware of what the breed average is. Some may have a 60# avg & others may be 80#.

 

[RosieRanch]

So if I were looking for a bull that would throw around 70-80 lb. calves, what BW epd would you say to look for? For example, If I had a heifer or a cow that was moderately framed(some are bigger) and no numbers to use on her side and I wanted to keep a moderate frame in the herd with the ability to make some good pounds at the auctions, would you say CED 5-?, BW 1.5-2.4, WW 35-50, YW 60-?, M ?-?.

 

[la4angus]

So if I were looking for a bull that would throw around 70-80 lb. calves, what BW epd would you say to look for?

Go back and read txag's comments about two comments above yours.

 

[RosieRanch]

I hadn't heard anything about the weather affecting the BW's before. How does that take affect? If the same herd, in Alabama, were moved up north, to Indiana, I would get a bigger calf at birth. Am I understanding right?

 

[cypressfarms]

I hadn't heard anything about the weather affecting the BW's before. How does that take affect? If the same herd, in Alabama, were moved up north, to Indiana, I would get a bigger calf at birth. Am I understanding right?

Yes,

I can't remember who did the study but a group of cattle was moved from north to south, another moved from south to north, and the finding was that cows, with everything else being equal, would have a larger calf in the north as opposed to the south.

 

[Frankie]

So if I were looking for a bull that would throw around 70-80 lb. calves, what BW epd would you say to look for? For example, If I had a heifer or a cow that was moderately framed(some are bigger) and no numbers to use on her side and I wanted to keep a moderate frame in the herd with the ability to make some good pounds at the auctions, would you say CED 5-?, BW 1.5-2.4, WW 35-50, YW 60-?, M ?-?.

EPDs don't ever tell you what anything will weigh. They only allow you to compare bulls (or cows) to other bulls within the same breed. The American Angus Assn recommends using an Angus bull with a BW EPD of less than 3 on first calf heifers. There are a lot of things that come into play, age and size of heifers, management, climate. We occasionally use a BW EPD 3 bull on our own heifers, but we've used the bull before and know the heifer's history, plus we're able to watch them when they're ready to calve. Higher CED #s are better than lower; I'd not use anything less than 7 CED on heifers (Angus). The Angus Assn has a Mature Weight and Mature Height EPD. Look at that in the bull you're thinking of using. Good luck....

 

[RosieRanch]

I appreciate all this info. I had seen a couple I like the looks of but they are not registered yet. One has estimated numbers of CED +8, BW +1.4, WW +27, YW +62, M +16. The bull I get will not be a strictly heifer bull, just about 10 in about 4 yrs. time. The rest will be grown cows.

 

[Aero]

Rosie:
you can use this page for young bulls to figure out what you are looking at for EPDs. http://www.angus.org/sireeval/brekdown. ... arent_ct=4
if you want to find a bull with good all-around EPDs, i suggest you use my WAR calculator. http://hilltopangus.net/downloads/WARIndex.pdf dont worry about the CBI. and if you dont understand the EPD, give it a value of "0". For heifers, if you have a BW EPD of <+2.0 and a CED > 7, you should be in good shape for calving ease.

the numbers you are quoting above sounds very good for a low input operation. If the bull is sound, numbers like this make for a pretty easy keeper. you might be giving up some cash selling calves, but it should come along with less work and supplementation costs.

what kind of operation are you wanting to run? feeder calf? retained ownership, etc? this is a key before selecting a bull.

cypress:
to be exact in what a +2.0 is means that calves should 2 lbs heavier than the Angus breed average birth weight of 1979. At the page cited above, you will see that +2.3 is average for Nonparent Angus bulls.

Frankie:
you technically should be able to guess a certain weight for 2 parents directly from EPDs. this will have a high rate of error, but its the best guess. if you can know what the average weight during an EPD baseline year, you can use it to guess what the real measurement should be. this will almost 100% be wrong because of environmental factors, accuracy of EPDs, creep vs non-creep, etc. but you technicallycan guess a real number for BW, WW, YW, etc.

 

[RosieRanch]

what kind of operation are you wanting to run? feeder calf? retained ownership, etc? this is a key before selecting a bull.

Aero,
I am wanting to be able to keep a couple good heifers for replacements while maintaining good growth at the auctions. Thanks for the link to your calculator. I'll check it out ASAP. [/quote]