What can you tell me about Charlo

[jdg]

41/97 of Kinloch E005 Reg: AAA +*16870261

https://www.facebook.com/KinlochFarm/
I've been up to Kinloch on numerous occasions, and have bought bulls and heifers from them. I've also visited over 25 ranches that I would say specialize in maternal, grass-based genetics, from GA to Montana. E005 is the soggiest, meatiest bull i've ever met that produces the types of daughters you want in a low input environment.

2.5 frame at 2200lbs...46cm testicles and perfect feet. I have a few daughters and granddaughters that are drop dead gorgeous. He's docile and kind of like a car wreck, it's hard to look away.

I know i sound like an ad, and full disclosure i'm good friends with the Jennings family who raised him, but he's the real deal if you want to lower frame size. If you breeding for numbers, go somewhere else. But if you're after proven cow families with excellent fertility and efficiency, you've got a homerun.

Pinebank 41/97, Ballot of Belladrum, Shoshone Viking, Rito 707, Candolier Forever 376...he's got an all star list of proven angus sires in his pedigree. Of course those older greats bring his "numbers" down.

 

[Ebenezer]

41/97 of Kinloch E005 Reg: AAA +*16870261

https://www.facebook.com/KinlochFarm/
I've been up to Kinloch on numerous occasions, and have bought bulls and heifers from them. I've also visited over 25 ranches that I would say specialize in maternal, grass-based genetics, from GA to Montana. E005 is the soggiest, meatiest bull i've ever met that produces the types of daughters you want in a low input environment.

2.5 frame at 2200lbs...46cm testicles and perfect feet. I have a few daughters and granddaughters that are drop dead gorgeous. He's docile and kind of like a car wreck, it's hard to look away.

I know i sound like an ad, and full disclosure i'm good friends with the Jennings family who raised him, but he's the real deal if you want to lower frame size. If you breeding for numbers, go somewhere else. But if you're after proven cow families with excellent fertility and efficiency, you've got a homerun.

Pinebank 41/97, Ballot of Belladrum, Shoshone Viking, Rito 707, Candolier Forever 376...he's got an all star list of proven angus sires in his pedigree. Of course those older greats bring his "numbers" down.

Is the current EPD data correct in that no calf data is shown in numbers reported? Just %.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

"Is the current EPD data correct in that no calf data is shown in numbers reported? Just %."
Ebenezer, Horse Butte 6141 is the same way. He shows 80 daughters in 5 herds with no calf data. Is that because he's used mostly commercial?

 

[Ebenezer]

"Is the current EPD data correct in that no calf data is shown in numbers reported? Just %."
Ebenezer, Horse Butte 6141 is the same way. He shows 80 daughters in 5 herds with no calf data. Is that because he's used mostly commercial?

Don't know as I probably turned in some calf data on 6141. Would have to look back. But those 80 daughters might have been in herds that did not do BW, WW or YW and yet they reported calving data? Don't know. Too far away from the ivory towers for me to know the high level answers. The bull Dan mentioned with a FS of 2.5 probably got little use in the average registered herd looking for cattle to sell to others as commercial breeders or foundation type registered cattle. I'd hate to see the calves hit the sales ring as commercials.

 

[jdg]

Ebenezer-
The bull has NOT seen a lot of usage in purebred herds that register cows, I suspect, because of those flat numbers from cow families reaching back decades. My daughters are on the smaller side, but not tiny....and the calves i've weaned have not been abnormally undersized. Pinebank cattle (his sire)mature early and grow pretty aggressive to yearling, but then shut down after yearling on mature size. Not terminal growth, but you won't see puds.

I believe the bull excels at producing grass finished beef, and daughters that are efficient at weaning a high percentage of their body weight with minimum inputs. But he's not going to produce enough frame to have steers top the sales ring at your local barn.

If you want a bull that will add muscle, fertility, good feet, docility, and bring down frame size....i think he will do this better than Charlo. I've been around enough Paxton sons to see what he offers with muscle, power, and efficiency, but his docility is questionable. Fertility is main thing that the Pinebank breed has stressed for almost 60 years without compromise. As stockmen, having a healthy calf at weaning every year has to be our first focus.

 

[LCBulls]

Ebenezer-
The bull has NOT seen a lot of usage in purebred herds that register cows, I suspect, because of those flat numbers from cow families reaching back decades. My daughters are on the smaller side, but not tiny....and the calves i've weaned have not been abnormally undersized. Pinebank cattle (his sire)mature early and grow pretty aggressive to yearling, but then shut down after yearling on mature size. Not terminal growth, but you won't see puds.

I believe the bull excels at producing grass finished beef, and daughters that are efficient at weaning a high percentage of their body weight with minimum inputs. But he's not going to produce enough frame to have steers top the sales ring at your local barn.

If you want a bull that will add muscle, fertility, good feet, docility, and bring down frame size....i think he will do this better than Charlo. I've been around enough Paxton sons to see what he offers with muscle, power, and efficiency, but his docility is questionable. Fertility is main thing that the Pinebank breed has stressed for almost 60 years without compromise. As stockmen, having a healthy calf at weaning every year has to be our first focus.

For the traits you listed above, why not use SAV Resource 1441, he does everything you listed as well as any bull and he's got really early maturing progeny that have plenty of growth. He also has thousands of calves backing it up

 

[jdg]

1441 is a frame 5.5....so you won't be bringing frame down very quick or far. And even though they share a common ancestor (Rito 707), I have a hard time believing that SAV is a maternal herd. (Saving daughters I assumed was the point of the Charlo question). I believe that it's probably one of the best terminal angus herds out there...but the vast majority of those daughters are too big for my environment to support.

 

[gizmom]

Jdg

Have you ever visited Schaff? Another question, have you used Schaff genetics? Just curious if you don't feel they are a maternal herd based on experience or just your opinion.

Gizmom

 

[LCBulls]

1441 is a frame 5.5....so you won't be bringing frame down very quick or far. And even though they share a common ancestor (Rito 707), I have a hard time believing that SAV is a maternal herd. (Saving daughters I assumed was the point of the Charlo question). I believe that it's probably one of the best terminal angus herds out there...but the vast majority of those daughters are too big for my environment to support.

That's an interesting comment, I believe that they are much more maternal cowherd than most of what's out there. They just happen to have good performance to go with it. Most people I've talked to believe that Resource progeny can be a little short. They definitely work for us. Hard to find a more masculine bull with excellent structure, feet, legs.

 

[Ebenezer]

1441 is a frame 5.5....so you won't be bringing frame down very quick or far. And even though they share a common ancestor (Rito 707), I have a hard time believing that SAV is a maternal herd. (Saving daughters I assumed was the point of the Charlo question). I believe that it's probably one of the best terminal angus herds out there...but the vast majority of those daughters are too big for my environment to support.

People can no longer think about beef cattle in clear terms of maternal and terminal. The brainwashing has been effective. It is a given in poultry, swine and dairy. It is said to be black magic, voodoo, superstition and mere opinion in beef cattle breeding. Makes no sense because it does not make sense.

A herd that pushes growth and carcass traits yet mouths "maternal" get the pass today. I do not need extremes of any sort. I need traits that fit the environment and my customer's environment. The best way to hit the target is to aim for the bull's eye and not the outer edges. A bull that is too short for commercial cattle to make decent money in the barn is a waste for me and customers and an edge of target. Any promoted herd that seeks the highest of growth or carcass is also an edge of target. Some folks like to live on the edge and feed cattle on the edge. Suits me fine; their time and money.

Pinebank had a tendency to seek terminal traits as priority and lots of the culling of untold females was self-inflicted as the selection of growth on a given environment can only allow a cow so much energy in spite of the rhetoric. The results of Pinebank are sure to suit some folks. But a lot more maternal goodness could have been established earlier if the quest for "power" in bulls had been recognized as an antagonist for the female side.

The environment wins or else you prop up cattle with shade, feed, ponds to cool in, deep and constant culling, making speeches, following herd prefixes, chanting slogans and such.

 

[LCBulls]

1441 is a frame 5.5....so you won't be bringing frame down very quick or far. And even though they share a common ancestor (Rito 707), I have a hard time believing that SAV is a maternal herd. (Saving daughters I assumed was the point of the Charlo question). I believe that it's probably one of the best terminal angus herds out there...but the vast majority of those daughters are too big for my environment to support.

People can no longer think about beef cattle in clear terms of maternal and terminal. The brainwashing has been effective. It is a given in poultry, swine and dairy. It is said to be black magic, voodoo, superstition and mere opinion in beef cattle breeding. Makes no sense because it does not make sense.

A herd that pushes growth and carcass traits yet mouths "maternal" get the pass today. I do not need extremes of any sort. I need traits that fit the environment and my customer's environment. The best way to hit the target is to aim for the bull's eye and not the outer edges. A bull that is too short for commercial cattle to make decent money in the barn is a waste for me and customers and an edge of target. Any promoted herd that seeks the highest of growth or carcass is also an edge of target. Some folks like to live on the edge and feed cattle on the edge. Suits me fine; their time and money.

Pinebank had a tendency to seek terminal traits as priority and lots of the culling of untold females was self-inflicted as the selection of growth on a given environment can only allow a cow so much energy in spite of the rhetoric. The results of Pinebank are sure to suit some folks. But a lot more maternal goodness could have been established earlier if the quest for "power" in bulls had been recognized as an antagonist for the female side.

The environment wins or else you prop up cattle with shade, feed, ponds to cool in, deep and constant culling, making speeches, following herd prefixes, chanting slogans and such.

I hear what you're saying about chasing Growth and Carcass traits. I certainly don't believe that you can say that they do that. Just look at the Sires that they have been using.
They certainly don't chase the fads that most big ranches do. Including myself with some bulls.

RIto 7075, Coleman Charlo, Final Answer, etc.
I wouldn't call these bulls carcass and Growth bulls
They did use Ten X, but I think they sold most of his daughters.
Resource, Renown, Seedstock,Charlo, Supercharger, President, Raindance, Rainfall, etc are all examples of bulls that certainly are not breed leaders for Carcass although they are Decent. Most of these bulls come from highly proven cows that have proven longevity and structural soundness. (14-18 years in production)

When I think Terminal, these are the bulls that come to mind:
Black Magic,Ten X, Rampage,Acclaim, Epic, Monumental, etc are a whole different level.

 

[Ebenezer]

Each environment defines maternal and terminal if maternal has not been genetically overridden.

 

[CattleMan1920]

From what I'm reading, some on here are looking for an F-450 with the fuel economy of a Tesla, that rides like a Rolls Royce, is affordable as a Honda Civic, and that can last as long as a Volvo.

Wouldn't that be great! But until that happens we all do the best we can. On our operation, we are trying to get as many SAV President and Raindance daughters as we can right now along with Harvestor, International, and Supercharger. We like SAV A LOT! as you can tell. We've been told, they will never hold up in Kentucky. Well, they are doing fine, growing like weeds, and dealing with the horrible weather. When it comes time to breed them, we will probably use Hoover Dam, Baldridge Colonel, Basin Payweight 1682, Bubs Southern Charm, and EXAR Denver 2002B on them, and guess what, they will most likely do just fine as well. Is this a perfect plan?, who knows, is this perfect for you?, again who the h..ll knows. There are many that seem to discourage every move one makes by saying, "oh that won't work!"....how do they know it won't work? Do they actually have progeny to prove it? Breeding is one big ole experiment in the end, don't believe the people who say "this is an absolute, this process I use is perfection", that's bulls...t!

I'm curious to see what an SAV President daughter bred to Bubs Southern Charm looks like, are there any to go by? any progeny to show me what they look like? Nope! It could be a dud, or it could be magic, who knows till you try it...

I just bred a very nice Connealy Capitalist daughter to SAV President 6847. Who has a calf out of that combo out there? Please message me if you do, I would love to hear about the results. I would say not many exist, if any. So how can you comment on it? negatively at that!

There are literally millions upon millions of genetic combinations that can be produced in cattle, which leads me to ask, who knows which is best? It's all a guess at the end of the day. An educated guess at best. Hence, you take in phenotype, you take in genomic-enhanced EPD's, pedigrees, and so on, and let those dice roll. I happen to like the overall package that Angus delivers, some don't, that's fine, breed what you like, and do your own research, lot's of it too!

 

[Air gator]

How are the feet on Charlo calves? Thanks.

 

[LCBulls]

All of our Charlo cattle have had good feet so far. Larry Coleman doesn't put up with cattle that have bad feet, udders. I'd say he's a definite foot improver.

 

[Air gator]

Thank you, LCBulls.

 

[Dsth]

I have three Charlo daughters that I will be breeding in March. they are a little shorter than my other heifers but are nice and wide and easier fleshing than mates. one is super calm and likes to be petted since she was about a month old. one is probably the worst docile heifer I have had in several years. one is in the middle and would call average for my herd. most of my cows are nice and calm. looking forward to seeing how they turn out.