What about a crash course for Murray Greys

[cmf1]

BB, you may want to get to know "mojaxcow" here on the boards. He's very well into and breeding SM's and Greys in Indiana. He and I and a few others with Greys are AI'ing to the old foundation type that first came over for less leg more beef and tenderness on grass.
I'd say you've got a leg up as "jeanne" in my mind has been more concerned with how and what is hanging on a good frame than the frame sizes.
By the way, that book to me is like an encyclopedia of good functional animals. I refer to it often, and am trying some matings to some of those bulls.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

Thanks cmf1. The old foundation type is exactly what we are looking for. What bulls are you using for AI?

 

[cmf1]

Here's one from this year

http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83872

Had a Barragunda Atlas, and a Bimbadeen Westward Ho, also but they are not developing as well.
Trying some others this year but I'll have to wait and see what caught. Feel pretty good about 8 of them but the two rebreeds won't show till 27th or 28th.
It's hard getting anything done with my fingers being crossed. :lol2:

 

[Backbone Ranch]

What else did you breed to? We are planning to AI to Ballee Thumbs Up next year. I really want to see what his calves look like. It looks like he is all body and not much leg.

 

[cmf1]

Only AI'd 10. Mostly to a son of Parknook Pelion we had gene tested and came back 10 for tenderness as well as some pretty good numbers across the board. He was Reserve Grand Ch. at the Denver National in 1977. and Grand Ch. in 1978. I've got a fair amount of semen from him and am breeding him PB and crossing.
Michaelong Canadian Invasion, because I really like the calf off of the Roman Invasion son I got this year.
Bimbadeen Innamincka's Star (page 52), beautiful bull that could cross well with the Pelion sons get.
Couple more I'm waiting to see if I got a shot of them taking.
I really need a few more good cows or heifers because I culled pretty hard recently in order to add back more of the kind I really want to manage. No real hurry, but the possibilities I have now with AI makes me want to try build the perfect beast(s), and keep the mistakes tasty.

 

[waihou]

I'm following this thread with interest, but from the bottom of the Pacific!
Re using B.Thumbs Up. We had one heifer by him, kept her for 4 calves but in the end her performance was dismal compared to the rest.
Here she is just starting labour and with her first calf as a 2yr old

and as a 3 yr old with her second

She looked to be a good milker, but in the end, after 4 calves, her milk EPD was -4kgs to a breed standard average of +3kgs.
She was out of a Ballee cow too, so you can't entirely blame the maternal side! We bought the dam in calf, at a National sale, having been shown and won at one of our major shows as well.

I actually did a comparison between her and another cow, of our own breeding, they calved pretty well together to the same bull for their four calves, so I compared their weaning performance and pretty well concluded that the milk EPD's they had before their own first calves were born were accurate, despite what their udders looked like, the other cow with the + milk EPD, is now 11 years old, now has a milk EPD of + 8kgs and about to have her 10th calf. The B.T.U. cow had her head chopped off 6 years ago!
I know EPD's (or we call the EBV's) are not everything, but in most cases they actually tell a bit more of a story than just looking at the animal. I saw B.Thumbs Up, he had an impressive carcase alright, but performance wise, I will reserve my judgement, as based on just one progeny is not a lot to go on after all!

Yes we scan our R2's for fat, marbling and eye fillet size and also did the gene star tenderness test thing too, until the 57 gene test got to muddley to understand clearly at a glance

 

[Rowdy]

So it's safe to say the milk epds are flawed as that cow makes considerably more milk than breed average.

 

[waihou]

Actually no, she doesn't, because her calf's growth to weaning, by the same sire, born the same time and fed in the same paddock, as compared with a same age cow, different breeding, with positive milk EBV's, was rubbish! I must look up the actual data, I did it two years running I think.

You would think for all that milk she would rear a heavier calf wouldn't you, so size of udder doesn't necessarily indicate milk production!

 

[waihou]

After delving into the records, here is a comparison of their 2005 heifer calves, by the same sire.
These two females one by Ballee Thumbs Up (X85)out of a bought in cow and one by Okaharau Principal (X83) out of a third generation home bred cow
These were their second calves, both heifers
Calf 171 out of X83 weighed 46kgs, born 25 October. At the time the dams milk EBV/EPD was +5kgs
Calf 172 out of X85 (dam by B. Thumbs Up) born 16 Nov weight 43 kgs the dams milk EBV/EPD was +1kg

Calf 171 at 137 days old 245kgs, gain per day 1.45kgs
Calf 172 at 115 days old 140kgs, gain per day .84kg

at 205 days calf 171 weighed 344kgs
at 205 days calf 172 weighed 216 kgs

Here are their calves for comparison at 11 months old.
172 on left (Thumbs Up grandsire) and 171 on right

The weights clearly indicated the EPD for milk for their dams was right all along, and the look of the udder didn't follow on!


Again compared the two cows with their 4th calves
Calf 230 born 20 August 2007, wt 45kgs out of X83


Calf 231 born 21 August 2007, wt 34 kgs out of X85 (Thumbs up sire)


weaning 21st March 2008 -calf 230 weighed 332 kgs, daily gain 1.35kgs/day
21st March 2008-calf 231 weighed 268kgs, daily gain of 1.11kgs/day

Not hard to see that the cow with the smaller udder and the higher milk EBV/EPD had far the best performance-so EBV's can be believed!

When we culled X85 as a 6 year old her Milk EBV was -4kgs and her 200day growth was +9kgs to a breed average of +19kgs
X83, still in the herd has a Milk EBV of +8kgs to a breed average of +3kgs, and a 200 day growth EBV of +25kgs to breed avg +19kgs

Not housed, outside all year round, also no creep feeding or concentrates here-all grass, hay and milk!

 

[Rowdy]

I disagree but we ll leave it at that. Those ywo heifers are different in type which accounts for their maturity difference at the same age. The heifer on the right is an earlier maturing broadly type whereas the heifer on the left is a bit more angular and feminine.

I feel you are interpreting those milk epds incorrectly. Many other factors contribute to growth besides milk production. Generally cows that are heavier milking are more angular in type and aren't the beefiest individuals within the breed. Year in year out my heaviest milking cow doesn't wean the heaviest calf. This is attributed to that type being smaller boned and later physically maturing- just like the two heifers you posted as a comparison. Udder size does indicate quantity of milk, what it doesn't indicate is quality of milk- butterfat.

 

[TwoByrdsMG]

These folks have Murray Grey stock in California. http://www.eaglesrun.com/cattle.html

I have a bull from there.
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls ... /209P.html

agmantoo,

I know you probably no longer have Just Because but I bought some semen from him last year and have our first calf coming out of him this spring.

Do you have any pictures of his calves?

I would love to get an idea of what to expect out of him.

Newer to the breed

 

[HDRider]

These folks have Murray Grey stock in California. http://www.eaglesrun.com/cattle.html

I have a bull from there.
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls ... /209P.html

agmantoo,

I know you probably no longer have Just Because but I bought some semen from him last year and have our first calf coming out of him this spring.

Do you have any pictures of his calves?

I would love to get an idea of what to expect out of him.

Newer to the breed

I think agmantoo is long gone