War Party Calf

[DOC HARRIS]

When I looked at the calf, I thought the very same thing 3Way started. Super bones on him. Larger bones =larger feet. The large footed cows usually have better hoof health as the weight is more distributed over a plate sized hoof.

Chuckie-

Very thought-provoking commentary, Chuckie. and as a continuation of that theme, larger bone and feet portends larger cattle, which, if one extends that concept, larger cattle result in higher feed costs (both feed and pasture), they wean a lower percentage of their mature body weight, which relates to being able to run fewer of them on any given acreage. Larger cows cost (at today's cost factors) from $80 to over $100 more per cow per year!

Puzzle Picture Question: What is AN answer to this conundrum? Well, one solution to the problem could be - Selecting breeding choices by BALANCING traits and characteristics on a fulcrum of smaller cattle and cross-breeding protocols. And - - focusing of Feed Efficiency traits.

And it continues - - Ad Infinitum Ad Nauseam

(But - ADD more PROFIT ALSO)!

DOC HARRIS

 

[inyati13]

When I looked at the calf, I thought the very same thing 3Way started. Super bones on him. Larger bones =larger feet. The large footed cows usually have better hoof health as the weight is more distributed over a plate sized hoof.

Chuckie, that is amazing you caught that and made that connection (3way too). But you connected it to the feet. One of the three main comments on War Party is a comment that he will improve the foot characteristics of your herd. It was one of the prime reasons I got a cane of his semen. You are the cat's meow, lady!!!!

 

[inyati13]

When I looked at the calf, I thought the very same thing 3Way started. Super bones on him. Larger bones =larger feet. The large footed cows usually have better hoof health as the weight is more distributed over a plate sized hoof.

Chuckie-

Very thought-provoking commentary, Chuckie. and as a continuation of that theme, larger bone and feet portends larger cattle, which, if one extends that concept, larger cattle result in higher feed costs (both feed and pasture), they wean a lower percentage of their mature body weight, which relates to being able to run fewer of them on any given acreage. Larger cows cost (at today's cost factors) from $80 to over $100 more per cow per year!

Puzzle Picture Question: What is AN answer to this conundrum? Well, one solution to the problem could be - Selecting breeding choices by BALANCING traits and characteristics on a fulcrum of smaller cattle and cross-breeding protocols. And - - focusing of Feed Efficiency traits.

And it continues - - Ad Infinitum Ad Nauseam

(But - ADD more PROFIT ALSO)!

DOC HARRIS

DOC, True. But there are cows in my herd that in proportion, have bigger feet than others of the same size. I like those with a good surface area under them as Chuckie mentioned.

 

[Chuckie]

Doc, I am glad to see you out and about. When you are gone, it's way too long.

Now, I can say that I had 17 cows until a couple of weeks ago. Now I have 15. All of these are grazing on less than 10 acres of land with no grain since early last fall. They graze and lay around all day. With an over stocked pasture, and I do provide hay bales to prevent bloat, I feel that I have spent very little money on my large framed cattle. I still beg to differ with those that say all large framed cattle are harder and more expensive to raise. Just got to know what you are buying and the lineage.
I did buy a terminal bull this year, with your input added into my selection. He is large, and does not stay fat like the cows. But he is also only 2.5 years old and has some growing to do. He is filled out with no fat what so ever. I like fat cattle, so when I look at him, I wonder if he will always stay this size or will he get fatter after he stops growing.
When I had big fat Grit, you said that I needed to up my numbers....so I did
Grits numbers....http://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedD...+hdRZlLMdooLcHtcZ/xXvjSjeC0bmrBbIcNQPHp7KsA==


New Bull numbers....http://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedD...+hdRZlLMdooLcHtcZ/xXvjSjeC0bmrBbIcNQPHp7KsA==

Tell me if I went the right direction or the wrong in Your honest opinion.
Chuckie

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I like your new bull's numbers and I think you're going in the right direction. Did you really go to Texas to get him?

TT

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc, I am glad to see you out and about. When you are gone, it's way too long.

Now, I can say that I had 17 cows until a couple of weeks ago. Now I have 15. All of these are grazing on less than 10 acres of land with no grain since early last fall. They graze and lay around all day. With an over stocked pasture, and I do provide hay bales to prevent bloat, I feel that I have spent very little money on my large framed cattle. I still beg to differ with those that say all large framed cattle are harder and more expensive to raise. Just got to know what you are buying and the lineage.
I did buy a terminal bull this year, with your input added into my selection. He is large, and does not stay fat like the cows. But he is also only 2.5 years old and has some growing to do. He is filled out with no fat what so ever. I like fat cattle, so when I look at him, I wonder if he will always stay this size or will he get fatter after he stops growing.
When I had big fat Grit, you said that I needed to up my numbers....so I did
Grits numbers....http://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedD...+hdRZlLMdooLcHtcZ/xXvjSjeC0bmrBbIcNQPHp7KsA==


New Bull numbers....http://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedD...+hdRZlLMdooLcHtcZ/xXvjSjeC0bmrBbIcNQPHp7KsA==

Tell me if I went the right direction or the wrong in Your honest opinion.
Chuckie

Chuckie-

It is always gives me a feeling of justification for my efforts when I see the potential results that should be realized when a producer acquiesces to a suggestion of mine. Before any comments are made in contrasting the two bulls in question here, let me say that, in my opinion, you definitely went in the right direction with your bull selection protocols.

The primary regimen which should be observed when selecting replacement bulls for an existing herd genetic profile is to carefully collate (or compare with detailed criticism) the phenotype, genotype, and Accuracies of EPD's of ALL the breeding females - along with the Contrasting traits and characteristics of the bull(s) in question. We have been discussing the "Functional" traits of this 'War Party' calf post, and I don't wish to hi-jack the thread, however this follows along with that previous trend of selection values. Functional traits are physical characteristics which affect the animal's function and longevity in the herd on a day-to-day basis; examples are skeletal structure (feet and legs, shoulder and spine), mammary structure in females, disposition, femininity, body capacity and fleshing ability. Harlan Ritchie is adamant on these traits. The size of legs and feet of War Party play a large part of his ultimate value as a breeding bull (IF one decides to use him with that whorl question hanging in the interim)!

But - back to the females in your herd! The total analysis of your herd Genetics and functional traits combine together in making breeding selection decisions, and by careful perusal of both the numbers (EPD's, et al) it is very apparent that you have really done your homework in bull selection - - IF EF Total 2254 is collating with your breeding females!

Now to contrast the two bulls: In matching "Total" to "Grit", you have elevated the MVP's (Molecular Value Predictions) on several economically important traits with your selection of Total - specifically YW, docility, CW, Marbling, RE, Fat. The Marbling and Rib Eye improvement is exemplary, and your could stress these traits when marketing your breeding stock to prospective buyers, particular terminal prospects.

I am pleased to observe that you have minimized the influence of Bon View New Design 1407 ( I call him the King of Funnel Butts ), but I imagine that there are some on this Forum who will really disagree with me. But he is a prime example of the importance of really focusing on BALANCING Multiple Trait Selection protocols, both breeding traits IN to one's herd, AND breeding traits OUT of the herd without disrupting the equilibrium of other critical characteristics. It is similar to Porcupines making love - it has to be done with great caution, and paying very close attention to ALL of the details!!

Congratulations, Chuckie. I think you will be pleased with your breeding selection results. My honest opinion is - you went in the right direction.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Isomade]

War Party calves are among the most docile I have ever had. Although I have never observed a swirl on a cow for these reasons. I have however on a horse for intelligence.

 

[Chuckie]

TT,
No, I didn't drive to Texas to the sale, but it wasn't because I didn't want to.
I had looked at 4 sales closer to home than Texas, but I could not find enough bulls to bid on at these sales to justify going. When I can only pick two bulls out of a sale, and that is it, I can pretty much count on them going for tens of thousands. I had decided that I was not going to find a good bull. I decided to look beyond the 500 mile radius to see what else was out there.
I found Evan's Farms on Superior shown their bulls walking on short grass with an extended video. No one was turning them back in a corner where someone couldn't see it. So, the bulls were traveling naturally.
When I looked at the videos, there were so many that I would bid on. They had plenty to choose from that didn't have the swaying hips, or bad legs. I had around 6 that I would bid on.

I called Tony Stidham and spoke with him quite a few times about different bulls. I gave him the numbers and told him that it was crucial that the bull did not have back end or rear leg problems. He assured me the bulls that I chose did not have leg issues and if I wasn't satisfied, to send him back. Good enough! I went over several issues I questioned with a couple of the bulls I picked, and he explained everything to me.

When the sale started, I placed a proxy bid on the first bull I chose, and he went way up, and then I placed a proxy bid on the second bull, and won him. I still had 6 bulls to go if this one had gone too high. I had chose 8 bulls I would bid on. I never see that many good bulls in one sale to pick from. I actually could have picked more than the 8. They had a great group to pick from in 2013.

I would go back again for another bull.

They put him on a tractor trailer that was coming through Tennessee on it's way to Virgina. I figured they had a bull for Sky on there.

 

[Nesikep]

It's strange that you find the bigger hoofed cows tend to have better hooves, I've found the opposite... The ones with the best hooves are lighter boned and don't have platters for hooves... I guess it could be useful for walking through mud? Improved flotation with duals? I've found calves that from early on stand on their 'tiptoes' tend to never need hoof trimming, I think part of it is because of how the joints develop, and as the bones harden, they put a bit more pressure on the tips.. Those that don't stand on their tiptoes will start to grow longer hooves earlier in life, before the bones harden, compounding the problem as they get older.

 

[glacierridge]

I think the way they are raised goes a long way in determining how docile they are. Also, the fist day of a calf's life is the best time to get them tame, if they don't see you the first day, they don't have the 'imprint' of you as a friend (geese are known for following the first thing they see). Momma of course has a lot to do with it too if she's always warning them when you come around.

How is this cow with other people? perhaps a lack of docility would show up with them? Kinda like my Mega that I can do anything with and follows me like a puppy, but doesn't like anyone else, while her aunt's daughters are any-person lovers. What is strange is that I'm more comfortable around Mega and a new calf than her cousins (though they've never done anything to worry me)

I'd agree there.
Some is definitely genetic, but a good portion is how they get handled from little on.
You can tell a big difference... like massive, between the 3 years and under group and the over three.
Everything in the younger set was handled with a halter pretty much daily for the first four months.
While we don't keep haltering regularly after weaning, these young animals still retain an impression.
Some are still shy, but still not wild.
Some are friendly and sweet.
And the rest kinda fall in the middle, indifferent but still very easy to handle.
The bull falls in this last group and I am totally fine with that.

 

[JWBrahman]

below[/b] the level of his eyes, and to the right side of his face. This is an indication of low docility traits, and indicates the possibility of his being difficult to handle at maturity, and a transmission of that trait to his progeny. I suggest that you consider that fact if you are considering retaining him for a breeding bull.

Desirable hair swirl location is considered optimal if the center of the round swirl is located in the center of the face and very slightly above the eye level.

DOC HARRIS

Doc I have heard the exact opposite, that below the eye level is the optimal location. FR Malz from Argentina gave a very good photo essay about Hereford eye sets and hair whorls using photos from his 1000+ herd.

 

[inyati13]

It's strange that you find the bigger hoofed cows tend to have better hooves, I've found the opposite... The ones with the best hooves are lighter boned and don't have platters for hooves... I guess it could be useful for walking through mud? Improved flotation with duals? I've found calves that from early on stand on their 'tiptoes' tend to never need hoof trimming, I think part of it is because of how the joints develop, and as the bones harden, they put a bit more pressure on the tips.. Those that don't stand on their tiptoes will start to grow longer hooves earlier in life, before the bones harden, compounding the problem as they get older.

Nesikep, what DOC stated above in reference to subjects that are Non-metric and anecdotal applies to feet in the same manner it applies to what are Good Coyotes/Bad Coyotes.

In science, hundreds of years ago, man sought to standardize a method for the pursuit of knowledge. Thus, the scientific method came into existence and all science everywhere in the world employs it. It is a means to eliminate bias and arbitrary, subjective findings. It assures that research can be verified and repeated. Repeatability is essential. Profoundly, essential. For example, I could repeat the hair swirl study using the same methods as Temple Grandin and find that a swirl below the eyes means the cow always steps to the right when she exits a chute. Do you see the problem with anecdotal research. Now: if we were studing the width between the set of the eyes, we would have a metric and could easily repeat the study.

Many subjects we all discuss on a daily bases are of an anecdotal nature. One of the best examples is the judging of livestock. It has very few if any metrics. If the winner of a show was based only on weight, it would be easy. Put every entrant on a scale and the biggest one wins!

With the feet: What is GOOD feet? What is BIG feet? What shape should they be? Etc. Etc.

I like my cows to have what I call large proportioned feet, set the way I like them. I don't like long thin claws or claws that have an odd turn to them. Now, what does that mean? Absolutely nothing because it is not metric and is only verifiable if you can read my mind. Abitrary and caprious.

I wonder if users fully appreciate what DOC was saying above where he addressed Lucky and Inyati13. Many subjects are hard to define in general discussions. That is probably the simplest way to say it!!!!

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

TT,
No, I didn't drive to Texas to the sale, but it wasn't because I didn't want to.
I had looked at 4 sales closer to home than Texas, but I could not find enough bulls to bid on at these sales to justify going. When I can only pick two bulls out of a sale, and that is it, I can pretty much count on them going for tens of thousands. I had decided that I was not going to find a good bull. I decided to look beyond the 500 mile radius to see what else was out there.
I found Evan's Farms on Superior shown their bulls walking on short grass with an extended video. No one was turning them back in a corner where someone couldn't see it. So, the bulls were traveling naturally.
When I looked at the videos, there were so many that I would bid on. They had plenty to choose from that didn't have the swaying hips, or bad legs. I had around 6 that I would bid on.

I called Tony Stidham and spoke with him quite a few times about different bulls. I gave him the numbers and told him that it was crucial that the bull did not have back end or rear leg problems. He assured me the bulls that I chose did not have leg issues and if I wasn't satisfied, to send him back. Good enough! I went over several issues I questioned with a couple of the bulls I picked, and he explained everything to me.

When the sale started, I placed a proxy bid on the first bull I chose, and he went way up, and then I placed a proxy bid on the second bull, and won him. I still had 6 bulls to go if this one had gone too high. I had chose 8 bulls I would bid on. I never see that many good bulls in one sale to pick from. I actually could have picked more than the 8. They had a great group to pick from in 2013.

I would go back again for another bull.

They put him on a tractor trailer that was coming through Tennessee on it's way to Virgina. I figured they had a bull for Sky on there.

Wow! You really do your homework that's for sure. Thanks for taking time to respond.

 

[glacierridge]

Looking thru a lot of my old photos of our cattle where the whorl is visible...
I have to say it's really hard to decide.

There were two animals of Hereford decent that my brother purchased from a guy to feed out and their whorl is placed in the same location as some of our coolest tempered cows.
In the middle between the eyes.
And I tell you, those two feeders were spooky as heck.

Some of the older group that was never haltered are super docile and mild, so I feel like this study, especially at GRF is inconclusive.
Can't really say it's based on their hair pattern or being handled.

 

[Chuckie]

The cost of shipping is not that much when they are already coming through.
I would not have bought a bull like this with most sales. That is why I complain about the straw. So much can be seen in a good clear video, and when a farm sells bull quality stock, then they don't have to hide a lot. When people are running every bull calf born on the place, then that is why they use the straw as they don't cull much of anything.

 

[Chuckie]

Nesikep, I guess I am just a strange person.
My large hooved cows never limp, and their feet look great. I would think the more weight a cow carries, it would be better to have weight distributed over a larger area foot than a small one.
Two cows with the same appearance, build, but one was smaller boned, with smaller hooves; and the other was larger boned, with a larger hoof, I would pick the larger hoof and bone every time.

One thing that you probably have in your area, is a lot of rock. Rocks help keep cattle feet worn. Here, the ground is completely void of rocks. It is a soft soil clay/loam soil. If there is a problem with the feet, it will show up quickly.

 

[inyati13]

Nesikep, I guess I am just a strange person.
My large hooved cows never limp, and their feet look great. I would think the more weight a cow carries, it would be better to have weight distributed over a larger area foot than a small one.
Two cows with the same appearance, build, but one was smaller boned, with smaller hooves; and the other was larger boned, with a larger hoof, I would pick the larger hoof and bone every time.

One thing that you probably have in your area, is a lot of rock. Rocks help keep cattle feet worn. Here, the ground is completely void of rocks. It is a soft soil clay/loam soil. If there is a problem with the feet, it will show up quickly.

I am in your boat. I like my cows to have feet like those big Zimbabwe Matabele women. Man, they have big wide flat feet. I bet when a croc gets after them they can walk on water!

 

[Chuckie]

Ron, I see testosterone bulging in his neck in the second photo.

 

[Nesikep]

I guess I forgot your girls condition :hide:

There's a couple places around here with rocky ground, but most of the time they're stepping on grass. I did have to give a little trim to my late calving heifer... 8 months standing in a corral doesn't wear much of anything. I'll try and get a picture of of the hooves I like. My observations, like Doc's, are anecdotal too... Another trait was that white hooves weren't good.. though I do find a higher proportion of them need much more attention, there are also some that stay perfect.

 

[Chuckie]

What is my girls condition Nesikep?