Very basic spraying question

[Greenwood Forest]

Hi, I just joined, but have used this place for reference for a while. I just bought an decent older PTO sprayer to spray a small (8-10 acre) hay field. Until now, I had rented a sprayer every couple years from a local feed store owner that I pulled with my truck. The man there asked what I wanted to spray, and had it ready to go for me. Very easy, but I now of course don't remember what his chemical cocktail was. I think it was just 2,4D, but he also added something else. Seems like it was something to do with the fact this was a boomless sprayer, to help the chemical get down on the ground better. The rig I just bought is also boomless.

He recently closed the feed store, and is in poor health, so I don't want to bother him. I'm not a big operator, and this is my first season setting aside a hay field, not expecting big results, just some grass. A neighbor is going to cut and bale it. The grass is bermuda and prairie grass in Oklahoma. So far, we've had good rain. Would the old standby amine 2,4D be suitable, or should I go the extra expense for Grazon?

Thanks

 

[novatech]

The big difference is that 2-4-d is going to kill what ever is in leaf when it is applied and Grazon has a residual effect which will help in controlling weeds that have not sprouted yet. The residual sprays are good but may also effect clover growth you may want in the fall.
Read the product label so you do not waste spray but still put enough on to control the target weeds. Calibrate your sprayer accordingly.

 

[greybeard]

Choose herbicide by what kind or species weed you are trying to control. Sounds like your old guy was adding ionic surfactant, but hard to tell. Surfactant I use calls for 1 pt per 100 gal of mix, but it varies. Droplet size will determine how fast the spray falls to the ground and how much drift you have, as well as the coverage on plant leaves. There's a good link in the tractors, trucks and machinery section about spray nozzle calibration.
Harder to calibrate a boomless tho, other than travel speed and pressure.

Ask your neighbors which herbicide they use--you and they probably have the same weeds.

 

[JWBrahman]

Dishwashing soap is a cheap alternative to surfactant that gives an excellent stick to glyphosate and 2 4-d. Don't forget to spray before 9am for best results.

 

[novatech]

Dishwashing soap is a cheap alternative to surfactant that gives an excellent stick to glyphosate and 2 4-d. Don't forget to spray before 9am for best results.

I found that dish soap is higher than the recommended surfactant. Secondly most dish soaps are anionic. But I have used it and all went well.
"According to the definition of nonionic and anionic, the two types of surfactant would attach to different ingredients in the herbicide.
What does this mean? I take it to mean that nonionic surfactant is intended to bind with a specific chemical in the solution.. so substituting the dish soap as the surfactant, which is an anionic, it would bind with different ingredients than intended and in fact May render the solution inert, or useless since the wrong surfactant was used. "

Im no chemist but just by looking up the question "The difference between anionic and nonionic." Thats what i gather.

I thought most glyphosate included the surfactant. Roundup in particular and also what ever brand is sold at TSC.

 

[greybeard]

I don't spray much glycosphate but I had very poor results using dish detergent as a surfactant with Remedy.

The weeds looked really really clean tho.

 

[JWBrahman]

Aw shucks Mister, that sounds smart! You are right, my place ain't nothing but shiny clean weeds.

 

[bird dog]

If you are going to all the trouble and expense to spray, why skimp on the surf? Thats like changing your oil, but not changing the filter to save $5. If you are going to do it, do it right.

Back to the original question, yes the 24D will work fine but for a few dollars more I would use the Grazon. Its not much money in the grand scheme of things and the soil residual does work as advertised, and also use a good nonionic Surfactant

 

[greybeard]

Aw shucks Mister, that sounds smart! You are right, my place ain't nothing but shiny clean weeds.

Never said it didn't work, just said I had poor luck using detergent with Remedy here in East Texas compared to the store bought surfactant.
Worked with a guy in West Texas that swore by Palmolive dish detergent as surfactant on mesquite, and said none others would work as well.
(yeah, I was joking about the clean weeds)

 

[greybeard]

If you are going to all the trouble and expense to spray, why skimp on the surf? Thats like changing your oil, but not changing the filter to save $5. If you are going to do it, do it right.

Back to the original question, yes the 24D will work fine but for a few dollars more I would use the Grazon. Its not much money in the grand scheme of things and the soil residual does work as advertised, and also use a good nonionic Surfactant

Do you not have concerns about the soil residual of Grazon killing off the seedbank of "good" forage grasses?

 

[bird dog]

No. Thats what it is made for. Why would you think it is harming your "good" grasses?

http://www.dowagro.com/range/products/grazonPD.htm

 

[cowboy43]

Is it true Grazon P+D should not be sprayed within 3 canopy lengths of large trees that you do not want killed like oaks and pecans trees, I use 2--4-D because of that reason, but it has no effect on the briars and scrub brush, is there a herbicide that can be used around pecan trees to kill woody species, like elm that come up like weeds,

 

[Cabo]

No. Thats what it is made for. Why would you think it is harming your "good" grasses?

http://www.dowagro.com/range/products/grazonPD.htm

Is this safe to use around cotton?

 

[greybeard]

No. Thats what it is made for. Why would you think it is harming your "good" grasses?

http://www.dowagro.com/range/products/grazonPD.htm

Because it has shown to have residual soil activity, and that activity can harm emerging and freshly germinating grass seed sprouts. Most herbicides, even selective broad-leaf herbicides, warn against spraying newly planted grass, and this is also why there is a significant waiting period before planting any legumes after Grazon application. My concern is that native clover is susceptible to damage should it's seed bank germinate within 4 months of grazon being applied.
Some states, recommend that no legume should be planted the same year that 2 pints/ac or more has been applied.

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLite ... age=GetDoc

There are also warnings about young and emerging peranial pasture grasses.

 

[BC]

No. Thats what it is made for. Why would you think it is harming your "good" grasses?

http://www.dowagro.com/range/products/grazonPD.htm

Is this safe to use around cotton?

No

 

[jsm]

My opinion is that if your pasture is really out of control, use Grazon. If not, use 2-4-D Amine. I personally think the residual in Grazon (Picloram) can injure grass seedlings. I try to only use it if absolutely necessary, as I am trying to re-establish pasture right now. I used Grazon to get it under control, now just use 2-4-D Amine.

I always use 1/2 of the cheap dishsoap bottles per 50 gallons of spray with excellent results.

Be cautious of wind speed and direction and make sure to calibrate correctly.

 

[B&M Farms]

A nonionic dish soap can get you by in a pinch but some dish soaps are anionic and cause more foaming and bubbles. Dawn is a nonionic I know of. You can buy a nonionic sufactant for less than $40 a 2 1/2 gallon jug. I don't think you could buy a dish soap any cheaper and everything I have read says you would have to use twice as much to have the same results. Not to mention all the bubbles to contend with.

 

[bordercollie]

Grazon is bad news for cotton and similar crops like tomatoes- It will drift and get ya in a mess . I have to keep records when I spray such chemicals and records of date, wind speed,direction and how much applied. I do love Grazon P+D. We use to have a problem with what we call blue weed. After I sprayed with grazon, in March,then months later, you could see strips of that weed where my guesstimate on the previous pass had been wrong. Now I use a little gps and use a 28' swath to have a bit of overlap. My main weed(besides the almost untouchable smut grass) now is goatweed, and buttercup. I can see a strip of where I get off for months. I need the residual Grazon offers because I can't spray after cotton is planted.With a weaker usage rate, the goat weed bounces back up but I take what I can get. bc

 

[Greenwood Forest]

If you are going to all the trouble and expense to spray, why skimp on the surf? Thats like changing your oil, but not changing the filter to save $5. If you are going to do it, do it right.

Back to the original question, yes the 24D will work fine but for a few dollars more I would use the Grazon. Its not much money in the grand scheme of things and the soil residual does work as advertised, and also use a good nonionic Surfactant

Do you not have concerns about the soil residual of Grazon killing off the seedbank of "good" forage grasses?

Sorry it took so long to report back.

I recently had a neighbor by that is a knowledgeable hay farmer. After looking at it, he said he'd just hit it once with 2,4D over the Grazon. It already looks fairly good, because I've mowed it some.

There is also some clover mixed in with the grass there. Maybe if I skipped the grazon, it might come back some.