Silver
Well-known member
Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?
Silver":3c3x75b5 said:Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?
True Grit Farms":1ydooji0 said:Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.
Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?Bright Raven":1ti09pl6 said:True Grit Farms":1ti09pl6 said:Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.
Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.
True Grit Farms":2ivre51b said:Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?Bright Raven":2ivre51b said:True Grit Farms":2ivre51b said:Or feed to build mass. Skinny people - animals don't have the muscle mass, even if they have the bone.
Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.
Can the genotype of a cow change from a dairy breed to a beef breed? Think Simmental cattle in your answer.Bright Raven":1mmjcxrf said:True Grit Farms":1mmjcxrf said:Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?Bright Raven":1mmjcxrf said:Feeding to build mass is essential but if the genotype is absent, the feeding accumulates in fat because the animal does not have a predisposition for muscle. The skinny people comment is analogous to dairy breeds. They have the bone but not the genotype for muscle that one sees in beef breeds.
Vince, I have seen them fed out. I didn't pay a lot of attention but growing up we had a dairy. None of our cows were registered but most had a holstein influence. We butchered a steer every year.
I may not have been clear. In fact, the analogy is not a great one. Properly stated: the genotype reflected in beef breeds promotes muscle mass.
True Grit Farms":3lsr2zif said:Can the genotype of a cow change from a dairy breed to a beef breed? Think Simmental cattle in your answer.
Bright Raven":2dzyap16 said:Silver":2dzyap16 said:Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?
Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate.
Silver":7o9poz5z said:Bright Raven":7o9poz5z said:Silver":7o9poz5z said:Going back to the bone and muscle part of this thread, I have never seen anything to prove that more bone equals more muscle, I wonder where that idea comes from?
Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate.
Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.
Bright Raven":3j9iwbpf said:Silver":3j9iwbpf said:Bright Raven":3j9iwbpf said:Muscle volume is a function of the size and mass of the skeleton. It is not a direct relationship but it does correlate.
Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.
The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.
Silver":2sa4smcu said:Bright Raven":2sa4smcu said:Silver":2sa4smcu said:Skeleton size, perhaps. But bone mass can have little to no relationship to muscle mass. If you believe that it does, perhaps you need to take a look at a Blonde d'Aquitaine. Less bone mass than Simmental, but more muscle.
The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.
Right, so you can in fact have less bone and more muscle. ;-)
Simmental was never a "dairy" breed in it's phenotype.. they were always a beefy, milking cow.True Grit Farms":3he3g1y0 said:Can the genotype of a cow change from a dairy breed to a beef breed? Think Simmental cattle in your answer.Bright Raven":3he3g1y0 said:True Grit Farms":3he3g1y0 said:Wrong, I guess you've never seen Holstein steers fed out? We have a large Mennonite community not far from us and they feed their steers out. If you can look past the hide, a fed Holstein steer is as impressive as any breed out there. Maybe JMJ FARMS has some pictures of them IDK?
Vince, I have seen them fed out. I didn't pay a lot of attention but growing up we had a dairy. None of our cows were registered but most had a holstein influence. We butchered a steer every year.
I may not have been clear. In fact, the analogy is not a great one. Properly stated: the genotype reflected in beef breeds promotes muscle mass.
tail and chin scratches are cheaper than cubesTrue Grit Farms":6uu8h42q said:Your a 100% correct, you have to cull cows of all breeds, some just more than others. So far Beefmaster seem to work the best in our management followed by Baldies. Hereford cows didn't work for us, but using Hereford bulls on Angus and SimAngus cows worked good. I supplement a lot more than you, we feed at least 100lbs of cubes a week. I can beep the horn a few times and the cows will come running out of the swamp to eat cubes. Works really good for looking them over and fly spraying.Gators Rule":6uu8h42q said:True Grit Farms":6uu8h42q said:Ifs and buts don't cut it in my management practices anymore. I just guess on my weights till I sell them. But I do sell between 20 and 40 head of mature sale barn cows a year. I've sold cows as large as 1740 lbs and as small as 750 lbs.
Simmental cattle work good for the show folks and those that supplement them in the south, otherwise you don't want them. I've often wondered if the reason Simmental struggle in the heat and poor grazing conditions in the south is because their a diary breed?
I realize you're playing the antagonist role or bored to tears this week. My pb Simmy's get hay in the non growing season, mineral year round. I would hardly count the 100 lbs of feed I give once per quarter to get them into my corral. And I would hardly say they are supplemented. They live on Bahia or they leave. Granted, not all would flourish here, but neither do all angus, and certainly not all the Hereford.
We only have a few older cows that will let you mess with them. When we first started fooling with cows most would let you pet them like a dog. But now it seems the more self sufficient our cows have become the less they like us.Nesikep":2cge2nhx said:tail and chin scratches are cheaper than cubesTrue Grit Farms":2cge2nhx said:Your a 100% correct, you have to cull cows of all breeds, some just more than others. So far Beefmaster seem to work the best in our management followed by Baldies. Hereford cows didn't work for us, but using Hereford bulls on Angus and SimAngus cows worked good. I supplement a lot more than you, we feed at least 100lbs of cubes a week. I can beep the horn a few times and the cows will come running out of the swamp to eat cubes. Works really good for looking them over and fly spraying.Gators Rule":2cge2nhx said:I realize you're playing the antagonist role or bored to tears this week. My pb Simmy's get hay in the non growing season, mineral year round. I would hardly count the 100 lbs of feed I give once per quarter to get them into my corral. And I would hardly say they are supplemented. They live on Bahia or they leave. Granted, not all would flourish here, but neither do all angus, and certainly not all the Hereford.
Bright Raven":3m7rqo53 said:Silver":3m7rqo53 said:Bright Raven":3m7rqo53 said:The most significant metric is surface area on the bone and size. You are correct. The dimensions of the bone.
Right, so you can in fact have less bone and more muscle. ;-)
Lol. I think I covered myself well saying it is not a DIRECT relationship without exception. But bone size does correlate to muscle mass. In general, there is greater potential to pack more muscle on a big bone than there is on a small bone.
Lrj505":3exua9l6 said:a huge black cow
Last year she weaned a 659 pound calf.
Weighs about 1,500
Lrj505":2lbi1o2j said:I think $4000 is outrageous for a calf