Upgrade or Resource bull? Gelbvieh?

[Bright Raven]

There is a correlation between bone mass and foot size. If the cannon bone is heavy, the tarsals and coffin bones are heavy and they have a nice big foot. Cattle here in our terrain handle the hills, clay and mud much better if they have good, big feet. It is something that the folks that got me started in Simmentals (Rocking P) bred for.

 

[Bright Raven]

True Grit, What South are you referring to? South Dakota? If you are meaning large frame, I would agree wholeheartedly, but most of the quality cattle I see in my neck of the woods (south central Florida) have at least moderate or better bone. Just came home from the other side of the world (FL Panhandle) with an angus bull calf, and two bred angus heifers. All had nice size bone and nice feet. I would say both breds had larger than average size bone for the angus breed, at least in the Deep South. Thanks Gizmom.

Now there is another point I would guess at, but honestly I don't know if I'd be right or wrong. I would guess that smaller bone size would equate to smaller feet. Right or wrong?

I agree on the frame. I have a couple cows that have huge frames. I have slowly culled on that. It calls for moderation. When I was selling mostly feeders, the buyers often gave me feedback that my cattle were too fleshy and lacked frame. One buyer said, "We want some leg under them".

 

[True Grit Farms]

If bone sells Holstein steers would top the beef sales. To much bone equals to much feed to finish out. That's the reason Angus influenced calves sell so well. I also think a big boned animal can't compete in the conditions we have in the south. Big boned equals hard doing?

True Grit, What South are you referring to? South Dakota? If you are meaning large frame, I would agree wholeheartedly, but most of the quality cattle I see in my neck of the woods (south central Florida) have at least moderate or better bone. Just came home from the other side of the world (FL Panhandle) with an angus bull calf, and two bred angus heifers. All had nice size bone and nice feet. I would say both breds had larger than average size bone for the angus breed, at least in the Deep South. Thanks Gizmom.

Now there is another point I would guess at, but honestly I don't know if I'd be right or wrong. I would guess that smaller bone size would equate to smaller feet. Right or wrong?[/quote]

I have found there is usually a correlation. I'm sure there are exceptions but the big boned cattle I have have a big foot. I'm not sure where the south is but here we have rugged country and will be over 100 degrees for several days and these big boned cattle handle it as well as anything.

Do you have Simmental cows over 1500 lbs? I have a couple of Simmental and SimAngus left in my herd, once I quit supplementing them the majority have culled themselves. I've been screwing around and experimenting with different types, sizes and management of cattle and now my cattle are beginning to work without needing supplementing - babysitting. Our cattle don't look as nice as most of the cows posted on CT, they don't wean off a giant calf either. But they all have a calf every year, and hardly ever have a sick cow or calf. I feed mostly 7-8% hay and if the cows can't do their job on that they find another home.

 

[Bright Raven]

Do you have Simmental cows over 1500 lbs? I have a couple of Simmental and SimAngus left in my herd, once I quit supplementing them the majority have culled themselves. I've been screwing around and experimenting with different types, sizes and management of cattle and now my cattle are beginning to work without needing supplementing - babysitting. Our cattle don't look as nice as most of the cows posted on CT, they don't wean off a giant calf either. But they all have a calf every year, and hardly ever have a sick cow or calf. I feed mostly 7-8% hay and if the cows can't do their job on that they find another home.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. If you keep at it another 100 years, you will be a wealth of knowledge.

;-)

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Do you have Simmental cows over 1500 lbs? I have a couple of Simmental and SimAngus left in my herd, once I quit supplementing them the majority have culled themselves. I've been screwing around and experimenting with different types, sizes and management of cattle and now my cattle are beginning to work without needing supplementing - babysitting. Our cattle don't look as nice as most of the cows posted on CT, they don't wean off a giant calf either. But they all have a calf every year, and hardly ever have a sick cow or calf. I feed mostly 7-8% hay and if the cows can't do their job on that they find another home.

Do you ACTUALLY weigh your cows? I do, at least twice a year. I KNOW how much my cows weigh. I have several that push 1600 pounds, and most are over 1200. They look just like everyone else's cows. People way underestimate cow size, and without an actual scale, you are guessing! ALL of my cows are Simmental or Simm Angus, and I supplement NONE of them when the grass is growing. My cows do not need to babysat either. I CHOOSE to feed a better quality hay (when I can find it) because I WANT TO, not because my cows need it to do their job. In the end, I have the same criteria as you; "if the cows can't do their job on that they find another home". My cows do their job, and they do it on some of the HOTTEST fescue tested!
You know my program, I do not need to repeat myself, but I get tired of you bashing the breed when YOU seem to be the only person complaining about the breed. I got a suggestion; sell all your Simmental cattle and buy what works for you, that way we do not have to listen to you complain about the breed. OBVIOUSLY, it works for MOST of the American cattle people who are using them, or they would not be in the top 3 breeds raised!

 

[Bright Raven]

Fire Sweep: Regarding size of cattle.

I live in Black Angus country. I see pasture after pasture of Black hided cattle. 92.5 percent of the local cattle have black hides.

Visitors come to my farm and a common remark is: Your cattle are big. Not sure if they are bragging or complaining.

I drive around and look at cows standing close to the fence. I slow down, look close, and think - crap, those cows are as big or bigger than mine!!!

Maybe it is regional. But I see a lot of big Angus cattle here.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Some of my gals are right up there with your hippos Ron. I don't worry about it as long as they are healthy and dropping calves. In fact, I don't really like the smallish cows we've got.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Ifs and buts don't cut it in my management practices anymore. I just guess on my weights till I sell them. But I do sell between 20 and 40 head of mature sale barn cows a year. I've sold cows as large as 1740 lbs and as small as 750 lbs.
Simmental cattle work good for the show folks and those that supplement them in the south, otherwise you don't want them. I've often wondered if the reason Simmental struggle in the heat and poor grazing conditions in the south is because their a diary breed?

 

[True Grit Farms]

Some of my gals are right up there with your hippos Ron. I don't worry about it as long as they are healthy and dropping calves. In fact, I don't really like the smallish cows we've got.

You're in a place where large cattle work great TT. If I was up north I'd be all Simmental or SimAngus. You can follow nature in what size cows that will do best in your environment. I think the size of the deer in your area represents the size of cattle your area can support without supplements. You can grow monster deer in Georgia but you HAVE to feed them.

 

[Bright Raven]

Ifs and buts don't cut it in my management practices anymore. I just guess on my weights till I sell them. But I do sell between 20 and 40 head of mature sale barn cows a year. I've sold cows as large as 1740 lbs and as small as 750 lbs.
Simmental cattle work good for the show folks and those that supplement them in the south, otherwise you don't want them. I've often wondered if the reason Simmental struggle in the heat and poor grazing conditions in the south is because their a diary breed?

Vince, I have no idea how Simmental perform south of here. Correct you on one point - the modern American Simmental is recognized (maybe not by you but you hold a vastly minority opinion on that) as a beef breed.

 

[Bright Raven]

Ifs and buts don't cut it in my management practices anymore. I just guess on my weights till I sell them. But I do sell between 20 and 40 head of mature sale barn cows a year. I've sold cows as large as 1740 lbs and as small as 750 lbs.
Simmental cattle work good for the show folks and those that supplement them in the south, otherwise you don't want them. I've often wondered if the reason Simmental struggle in the heat and poor grazing conditions in the south is because their a diary breed?

Vince, I know you agree on this - you got to love Kris' passion for Simmentals.

:banana:

 

[True Grit Farms]

Ifs and buts don't cut it in my management practices anymore. I just guess on my weights till I sell them. But I do sell between 20 and 40 head of mature sale barn cows a year. I've sold cows as large as 1740 lbs and as small as 750 lbs.
Simmental cattle work good for the show folks and those that supplement them in the south, otherwise you don't want them. I've often wondered if the reason Simmental struggle in the heat and poor grazing conditions in the south is because their a diary breed?

Vince, I know you agree on this - you got to love Kris' passion for Simmentals.

:banana:

I definitely do and respect her input as well. The fact is, any breed of cattle will excell in y'alls management practices. We started off in the cattle business with PB Simmental cows and bull and had great success. But we had to work for the cows to make them work for us.

 

[Gators Rule]

True Grit, What South are you referring to? South Dakota? If you are meaning large frame, I would agree wholeheartedly, but most of the quality cattle I see in my neck of the woods (south central Florida) have at least moderate or better bone. Just came home from the other side of the world (FL Panhandle) with an angus bull calf, and two bred angus heifers. All had nice size bone and nice feet. I would say both breds had larger than average size bone for the angus breed, at least in the Deep South. Thanks Gizmom.

Now there is another point I would guess at, but honestly I don't know if I'd be right or wrong. I would guess that smaller bone size would equate to smaller feet. Right or wrong?[/quote]

I have found there is usually a correlation. I'm sure there are exceptions but the big boned cattle I have have a big foot. I'm not sure where the south is but here we have rugged country and will be over 100 degrees for several days and these big boned cattle handle it as well as anything.

Do you have Simmental cows over 1500 lbs? I have a couple of Simmental and SimAngus left in my herd, once I quit supplementing them the majority have culled themselves. I've been screwing around and experimenting with different types, sizes and management of cattle and now my cattle are beginning to work without needing supplementing - babysitting. Our cattle don't look as nice as most of the cows posted on CT, they don't wean off a giant calf either. But they all have a calf every year, and hardly ever have a sick cow or calf. I feed mostly 7-8% hay and if the cows can't do their job on that they find another home.

I used to have some behemoth simmy cows, but most of those moved on.... As of today, I only have a couple left, and only one that will never leave my pasture (wife's favorite). The main problem I have with my current herd is I want to moderate them to around 1200 lb average, and I want to increase their milk. Believe that? Dream On was a fantastic Simmental bull, possibly the most influential Simmy bull in the past 20 or so years (just my opinion). His claim to fame for a lot his following was his ability to reduce milk. I had quite a few of his daughters and granddaughters, and AI'd them to other PB sires, who were either DO sons, or shared the low Milk EPD, but were very good in other areas. Ultimately, I want to improve my cows by adding milk back to them, as well as several other areas of improvement by AI'ing to PB Simmental. Eventually, I may use Gizmom's bull calf to clean them up. Currently, if he grows off like we hope, he primary job will be on my commercial limo, angus, Simmental cross cows. I've already forgot the question, so I'll shut up now. Oh, I will just add that I do not supplement my cattle, purebreds nor commercial. They get hay when pasture is dormant, and year round mineral and salt. I do feed 100 lbs of feed whenever I am penning them, just to get them into the corral.

 

[Gators Rule]

If bone sells Holstein steers would top the beef sales. To much bone equals to much feed to finish out. That's the reason Angus influenced calves sell so well. I also think a big boned animal can't compete in the conditions we have in the south. Big boned equals hard doing?

True Grit, What South are you referring to? South Dakota? If you are meaning large frame, I would agree wholeheartedly, but most of the quality cattle I see in my neck of the woods (south central Florida) have at least moderate or better bone. Just came home from the other side of the world (FL Panhandle) with an angus bull calf, and two bred angus heifers. All had nice size bone and nice feet. I would say both breds had larger than average size bone for the angus breed, at least in the Deep South. Thanks Gizmom.

Now there is another point I would guess at, but honestly I don't know if I'd be right or wrong. I would guess that smaller bone size would equate to smaller feet. Right or wrong?

I don't know about your smaller feet thought. But you bought moderate bone - frame cattle. The bull calf you bought will produce moderate framed - boned cattle. You need to buy a calf or two from Raven then you'll see what I'm talking about. Just post before and after pictures.

While I love looking at Bright Raven's cattle and calves, I'm afraid moving them from their lush environment to my humid tropical mosquito infested Bahia pastures would create a rebellion of sorts. Not all can make it here. I have culled those who are hard doing in my environment over the years to where I have a pretty solid group that handle themselves pretty well.

 

[Bright Raven]

True Grit, What South are you referring to? South Dakota? If you are meaning large frame, I would agree wholeheartedly, but most of the quality cattle I see in my neck of the woods (south central Florida) have at least moderate or better bone. Just came home from the other side of the world (FL Panhandle) with an angus bull calf, and two bred angus heifers. All had nice size bone and nice feet. I would say both breds had larger than average size bone for the angus breed, at least in the Deep South. Thanks Gizmom.

Now there is another point I would guess at, but honestly I don't know if I'd be right or wrong. I would guess that smaller bone size would equate to smaller feet. Right or wrong?

I don't know about your smaller feet thought. But you bought moderate bone - frame cattle. The bull calf you bought will produce moderate framed - boned cattle. You need to buy a calf or two from Raven then you'll see what I'm talking about. Just post before and after pictures.

While I love looking at Bright Raven's cattle and calves, I'm afraid moving them from their lush environment to my humid tropical mosquito infested Bahia pastures would create a rebellion of sorts. Not all can make it here. I have culled those who are hard doing in my environment over the years to where I have a pretty solid group that handle themselves pretty well.

I believe that. No one ever saw me post that my cows have it hard. ;-)

 

[Gators Rule]

I don't know about your smaller feet thought. But you bought moderate bone - frame cattle. The bull calf you bought will produce moderate framed - boned cattle. You need to buy a calf or two from Raven then you'll see what I'm talking about. Just post before and after pictures.

While I love looking at Bright Raven's cattle and calves, I'm afraid moving them from their lush environment to my humid tropical mosquito infested Bahia pastures would create a rebellion of sorts. Not all can make it here. I have culled those who are hard doing in my environment over the years to where I have a pretty solid group that handle themselves pretty well.

I believe that. No one ever saw me post that my cows have it hard. ;-)

You are correct, you have not. I see NOTHING wrong with how you manage your cattle. It's easy to see you enjoy your cattle, and thusly you pamper them. I would assume you would handle them differently if you relied up your cattle to make ends meet. You don't, so you should manage them to get the most enjoyment from them. I highly doubt they will argue with you! :mrgreen:

 

[Gators Rule]

Ifs and buts don't cut it in my management practices anymore. I just guess on my weights till I sell them. But I do sell between 20 and 40 head of mature sale barn cows a year. I've sold cows as large as 1740 lbs and as small as 750 lbs.
Simmental cattle work good for the show folks and those that supplement them in the south, otherwise you don't want them. I've often wondered if the reason Simmental struggle in the heat and poor grazing conditions in the south is because their a diary breed?

I realize you're playing the antagonist role or bored to tears this week. My pb Simmy's get hay in the non growing season, mineral year round. I would hardly count the 100 lbs of feed I give once per quarter to get them into my corral. And I would hardly say they are supplemented. They live on Bahia or they leave. Granted, not all would flourish here, but neither do all angus, and certainly not all the Hereford.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Ifs and buts don't cut it in my management practices anymore. I just guess on my weights till I sell them. But I do sell between 20 and 40 head of mature sale barn cows a year. I've sold cows as large as 1740 lbs and as small as 750 lbs.
Simmental cattle work good for the show folks and those that supplement them in the south, otherwise you don't want them. I've often wondered if the reason Simmental struggle in the heat and poor grazing conditions in the south is because their a diary breed?

I realize you're playing the antagonist role or bored to tears this week. My pb Simmy's get hay in the non growing season, mineral year round. I would hardly count the 100 lbs of feed I give once per quarter to get them into my corral. And I would hardly say they are supplemented. They live on Bahia or they leave. Granted, not all would flourish here, but neither do all angus, and certainly not all the Hereford.

Your a 100% correct, you have to cull cows of all breeds, some just more than others. So far Beefmaster seem to work the best in our management followed by Baldies. Hereford cows didn't work for us, but using Hereford bulls on Angus and SimAngus cows worked good. I supplement a lot more than you, we feed at least 100lbs of cubes a week. I can beep the horn a few times and the cows will come running out of the swamp to eat cubes. Works really good for looking them over and fly spraying.

 

[Nesikep]

My cows I like best tend to be in the 13-1400 lb range.. Much smaller than that they're either skinny racks or don't have enough frame, and neither makes for a good calf.. Much bigger than that and they're just giant mouths to feed and there's no return in calf size.
When I hear of all these 900 lb cows with 700 lb calf weaning weights, I know some scales need recalibration!

This cow (left) is about perfect, and I love her calves too.. lots of meat, stout but not all bone, raises great calves, stays in good condition and breeds back well.. her two daughters in front of her, hoping they produce like they look

 

[Supa Dexta]

What they fail to mention is they wean when the next calf hits the ground, and the bull runs year round, so the weaned calf is bred too - which is why it will top out at 900 as well.