Twins?

[TREY-L]

I had a heifer tested in September and they specifically asked for blood of both twins. The cost was R150 which is roughly $10.

Do you suppose they were doing some kind of genome research with the bull twins blood? I guess if one were real curious they could always telephone and ask why they needed blood from both. I am in agreement with others, as far as I know only a sample from the female is required.

 

[CKC1586]

Yup, only need to test the heifer. GenMark is the lab I used, $35.

I had a heifer tested in September and they specifically asked for blood of both twins. The cost was R150 which is roughly $10.

dun, the Y is the male chromozome. Normal males have XY and females XX.

I am curious as to why they wanted the bulls blood??

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I totally agree that size of bellie does not tell me anything - BCS is the biggest factor in relation to her contemporaries.
I am amazed that noone has mentioned that your cattle are terribly THIN. I would NEVER post a pic of an animal that thin. You need to learn how to BCS (Body Condition Score) your cattle. It is very useful in management of a herd.
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/beef/400-795/photos1-9.html
Cattle should be in a BCS of at least 5 - heifers should be 6.5 - I think yours are about a 3.5 - 4?? Someone else got an opinion?

 

[Putangitangi]

... I would NEVER post a pic of an animal that thin...

Because you'd never have cattle so thin, presumably, but is it therefore unacceptable for someone else to do so if they are looking for assistance?

In some seasons, at the end of winter, a few weeks before calving, my cattle have looked awful. Then the grass grows, they calve, feed them well, get back in calf, look glossy and healthy and go on. I often look at pictures here and think, how can people keep their cattle so FAT? A fat cow on my place indicates an animal which doesn't have the balance right in terms of keeping the fat on her back, or feeding it to her calf - or she's dry. This year I'm destocking a bit, so maybe I'll see things differently next year.

 

[KNERSIE]

I totally agree that size of bellie does not tell me anything - BCS is the biggest factor in relation to her contemporaries.
I am amazed that noone has mentioned that your cattle are terribly THIN. I would NEVER post a pic of an animal that thin. You need to learn how to BCS (Body Condition Score) your cattle. It is very useful in management of a herd.
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/beef/400-795/photos1-9.html
Cattle should be in a BCS of at least 5 - heifers should be 6.5 - I think yours are about a 3.5 - 4?? Someone else got an opinion?

I agree that the cow in question is certainly thinner than I like, but conditions outside our control often play such a big role that I've given her the benefit of the doubt.

A fat cow on my place indicates an animal which doesn't have the balance right in terms of keeping the fat on her back, or feeding it to her calf - or she's dry.

Conditions vary too much for such a broad statement to hold true in all cases. For my conditions and also for those with really harsh winters, or summers for that matter, we need a cow that can build up a reserve to use as an emergency energy supply. I have no place for cows that milk themselves to a bag of bones as they will invariably end up open, if not the next year, then the year after.

Contrary to popular believe you can get cows that milk well, raise a top calf, stay in good condition year round and do that every year.

 

[Putangitangi]

A fat cow on my place indicates an animal which doesn't have the balance right in terms of keeping the fat on her back, or feeding it to her calf - or she's dry.

Conditions vary too much for such a broad statement to hold true in all cases. For my conditions and also for those with really harsh winters, or summers for that matter, we need a cow that can build up a reserve to use as an emergency energy supply. I have no place for cows that milk themselves to a bag of bones as they will invariably end up open, if not the next year, then the year after.

Contrary to popular belief you can get cows that milk well, raise a top calf, stay in good condition year round and do that every year.

That's how I'd like to see my cows, and someday I'll work out how to be a better farmer and they will look that way. Here we get no snow, the grass keeps growing to some extent through the winter, we don't feed out.

 

[KNERSIE]

A fat cow on my place indicates an animal which doesn't have the balance right in terms of keeping the fat on her back, or feeding it to her calf - or she's dry.

Conditions vary too much for such a broad statement to hold true in all cases. For my conditions and also for those with really harsh winters, or summers for that matter, we need a cow that can build up a reserve to use as an emergency energy supply. I have no place for cows that milk themselves to a bag of bones as they will invariably end up open, if not the next year, then the year after.

Contrary to popular belief you can get cows that milk well, raise a top calf, stay in good condition year round and do that every year.

That's how I'd like to see my cows, and someday I'll work out how to be a better farmer and they will look that way. Here we get no snow, the grass keeps growing to some extent through the winter, we don't feed out.

You are right, balance is the key, i just think we disagree on what exactly that balance is.

For me that balance is when the production of the cow is matched to the environmental conditions so that the cow can maintain herself and raise a calf optimally.

Grazing conditions in NZ is known worldwide to be outstanding, that is probably why you can get away with what you are doing, count yourself fortunate to farm in such conditions. Wish I did.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

And I'm not saying I don't have or never have had a thin cow (although I don't believe I have ever had one that thin). And you can expect a cow to be thin if in fact she was carrying twins, or more so, if she was nursing twins. But, if you look back at the pictures, ALL the cattle that you can see are extremely thin.
And, if I had a cow that was even a bit thinner than normal healthy condition, I would not post a picture for the world to see. Sooo, in my opinion (IMO) this producer cannot SEE the difference, therefore I was trying to point out they needed to learn how to read BCS to better manage their herd.
And Knersie is dead on. You watch the BCS of your herd and you adapt neccesary action to keep them in good condition if you expect them to breed, calve a healthy calf & wean a good WW.
Keeping good BCS MAKES you money not COSTS you money. IMHO

 

[Putangitangi]

Thank you both. I'm relatively new to farming, have done so in one environment only, so don't necessarily automatically see the reasons for differences in other places. These discussions make for great learning opportunities.

I was looking back at some early-spring photos a couple of days ago and was horrified at the condition of my cows then, but at that stage I know I was congratulating myself for having brought them through the winter in a reasonably good state. It's easy to become blind when changes in condition are slow.

 

[cowman30]

Thank you both. I'm relatively new to farming, have done so in one environment only, so don't necessarily automatically see the reasons for differences in other places. These discussions make for great learning opportunities.

I was looking back at some early-spring photos a couple of days ago and was horrified at the condition of my cows then, but at that stage I know I was congratulating myself for having brought them through the winter in a reasonably good state. It's easy to become blind when changes in condition are slow.

I agree the cow was thin but I have seen alot worse.

 

[cowgirl_up_47]

And I'm not saying I don't have or never have had a thin cow (although I don't believe I have ever had one that thin). And you can expect a cow to be thin if in fact she was carrying twins, or more so, if she was nursing twins. But, if you look back at the pictures, ALL the cattle that you can see are extremely thin.
And, if I had a cow that was even a bit thinner than normal healthy condition, I would not post a picture for the world to see. Sooo, in my opinion (IMO) this producer cannot SEE the difference, therefore I was trying to point out they needed to learn how to read BCS to better manage their herd.
And Knersie is dead on. You watch the BCS of your herd and you adapt neccesary action to keep them in good condition if you expect them to breed, calve a healthy calf & wean a good WW.
Keeping good BCS MAKES you money not COSTS you money. IMHO

I can see the difference between a thin and fat cow, I don't need you to point that out to me. I don't know how you can see that the rest of the cattle are thin from those pictures.

I think you're being way too quick to judge.

I too have seen a lot worse.

 

[cowgirl_up_47]

I appreciate all of the helpful replies.

From what I've looked at, she's a 4, maybe 5. On a couple sites, 4 is considered "borderline".

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Photo 4: BCS 4. Borderline condition. Outline of spine slightly visible. Outline of 3 to 5 ribs visible. Some fat over ribs and hips.

Photo 3: BCS 3. Thin condition. Slight muscle atrophy. All ribs visible. Very little detectable fat.

I meant this as a possible learning session. You did take the time to look at the BCS. That is GREAT. But, with most producers, they don't REALLY see their animals for what they are.
I took your pictures & put them in my Photo program & lightened up the first two pics. No, I was not wrong. They are too thin. Closer to the 3 BCS.
BCS 4, would have some FAT over ribs & hips. Big bellie, heavy in calf does not mean she is FAT. Fat is a soft layer under the hide. She is totally hollow from spine to hip bone to pin bone.
Again, I'm not trying to be mean. If you can learn to SEE the condition, you can manage your herd differently. If environment is so harsh that they don't have enough to eat, you should lower your numbers or bite the bullet & purchase suppliment.
Hope she doesn't have twins.

 

[Keren]

I dunno, by my eye I see them as BCS 4 according to those pics, certainly not 3 :???:

 

[cowgirl_up_47]

I dunno, by my eye I see them as BCS 4 according to those pics, certainly not 3 :???:

Thank you. That's what I was thinking.

Slight muscle atrophy[/b]. All ribs visible. Very little detectable fat.
Fat is a soft layer under the hide.

Not all the ribs are showing.

I know what fat is. She definitely does not look like the BCS 3 picture. Personally, I think you're being way too quick to judge things.

I am not saying she isn't thin, I'm just saying she's not as thin as a BCS of 3.

I would say she is a 4, and from what I have read, that's not that bad.

 

[wood2]

I bought a cow at a sale they said she was a 7yr old solid mouth and top of her 3rd period preg. she in all reality is 9 or older great cow was very heavy on both sides a month and a half later looked like possible twins ended up a 100# bull calf no prob with birth, biggest calf we have had born on our place, she is preg again different bull but looks like she is going to have another big calf this year, different than other cows bred with same bull, im thinking its in her genetics, since I bought her at a sale barn you are never sure as to what they tell you is so.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I would say she is a 4, and from what I have read, that's not that bad.

If she is a dairy cross or a beef animal totally lacking muscling, I might agree. But, there is NOTHING between the spine, hooks & pins. Either there is muscle atrophy or maybe there never was never any muscle there.
Don't know what you read, but BCS 4 is not recommended for a cow close to calving. Should be a minimum of 5 - 5.5, 6 being better. And first calf heifers should be at least a 6 - 6.5.
Now that you know the BCS remember:
It is difficult to put weight on a cow in 3rd trimester, but it is almost impossible to do it after she calves - without a LOT of expensive suppliment.
And don't listen to people who say, "don't feed them heavy during 3rd trimester, you'll get big calves". That is WRONG. Research has proven this to be untrue. Thin cows have much harder calving difficulties because they don't have the energy needed, and the calves are born weak, called Weak Calf Syndrome. Hope this information helps.

 

[KNERSIE]

It is difficult to put weight on a cow in 3rd trimester, but it is almost impossible to do it after she calves - without a LOT of expensive suppliment.

With the right genetics and type for your environment its alot more possible than you think.

 

[Putangitangi]

...It is difficult to put weight on a cow in 3rd trimester, but it is almost impossible to do it after she calves - without a LOT of expensive suppliment. ...

Please would you explain that statement? Do you not calve into the beginning of springtime when grass might grow?

Here our cows come out of winter onto increasing growth, so although they may have lost weight through the winter as they were pushed to manage the pastures, they lose no more in the last weeks of pregnancy when their demand is high. During the first month of lactation they're on (hopefully, unless the sring is unusually cold or dry) increasing feed, bringing them back to fertility in good time to produce the next calf within a year each time.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

People that are calving now in the North have snowballs and rabbit tracks for the cows to graze on.
Once a cow has her calf, her body is repairing & producing milk. A lot of demand on a THIN cow if you expect her to rebreed to maintain a 12 month calving interval. Especially a 2 yr old, she is still growning and cutting teeth.
I feed top quality baleage, and I know a thin cow does not gain back her weight until well into lush pastures, which around here won't be until mid May.
I shouldn't make "blanket" statements I guess. Every area and environment has their own challenges. But, I sure prefer having my cattle in 5.5 - 7 BCS at the time of calving. No "catchup" to do. My cows generally are cycling between 30-35 days.