Too many nursing problems!!

[therehegoes]

Hey folks...I'm new here...a smaller cow/calf Angus herd...about 40 head.We started calving 10 days ago.  Of the 12 born so far, I've had 4 that have just been a PAIN.  I lost the first one...I haven't run into this for years and didn't realize it hadn't nursed until 4 days had gone by...electrolytes 3X a day, eventually adding some colostrum from a neighbor, too weak to train and we lost her.The second one I was finally able to train and its fine.  I now have 2 more I'm working with.  I don't jump in too fast, but after 24-48 hours I feel I need to move, realizing by then the antibodies in the milk will be largely non-absorbed.  I have seen this in the past and surprisingly at times after a few days the calf figures it out.  The problem ones this year haven't even been focused on the correct end of the cow after 1-2 days, which sounds an alarm to me.Young 2-4th calf cows in general, small to medium teats, not one problem with this in the last 3-4 years, suddenly its taking all my time.  A few of these have been born in the REALLY crummy weather we've been having...possibly a factor? First group from a new "Woodhill" bull (we love the genetics)...any possibilities there? Realizing this is probably just a fluck, but I'm really getting frustrated.Any thoughts?  Thanks! 

 

[Frankie]

That is discouraging. How's your herd heath program? Mineral, vaccinations? Are the cows in good body condition? Have you talked to your vet? If the ones having problems are related, I'd sure look at not using those genetics anymore. I hope things go better for you.

 

[Beefy]

my vet told me once that if you have a lot of dumb suckers born in a short span of time that you may have a bvd cow hidden in the herd that was shedding the disease when the calves were being gestated.

hopefully its just a fluke occurrence tho and i dont see why it couldnt possibly be a hereditary deal either.

 

[rockridgecattle]

cold crappy weather delays the sucking of some calves. Troubles calving can also delay the sucking instinct. They for some reason get "stupid". We have more that a few this year but it was weather related.

Gotta say though colostrum is best absorbed in the first two hours after birth, 6 they will still absorb, but after that it starts to diminish, and requires more colostrum to get the proper amount of antibodies to fight infection. After 24 hours little if not none is absorbed.
Calves are born with zero immunity. Nothing from the dam is transfer to the calf during gestation. It is the colostrum that give the calf its fighting chance.
By not monitoring this closer the calf is more suseptable to disease out breaks. Will not be able to fight of scours, infectious diseases, pnemomia and anything else that comes their way.
As well they become bacteria and virus factories shedding obscene amounts of disease in their poop, urine, snot, saliva. This inturn increases the threshold of bacteria and virus in the area the calves are in. Increased threshold puts stress on the calves which received timely colostrum, stressing their system making them more suseptable to scours, ibr, bvb and any thing else under the sun.
If you have a herd health program, you pretty much tossed it out the window where the calves are concerned. If there is one thing to be vigilant about it is timely ingestion of colostrum.
What happens in the first 2-6 hours of life sets the tone for the rest of their life. You might not see the results from this, but i guarantee you the feed lot guys will
Colostrum has other benifits as well. Extra fat, carbs, protiens that a new born calf needs to get a good start.

Sorry for the rant...wait, no I am not...I think

 

[therehegoes]

That is discouraging. How's your herd heath program? Mineral, vaccinations? Are the cows in good body condition? Have you talked to your vet? If the ones having problems are related, I'd sure look at not using those genetics anymore. I hope things go better for you.

Thanks...I'm hoping so myself! Herd health, condition, minerals couldn't be better...I've followed a pretty strict regime for a good 15 years now. I'm hoping its the weather as mentioned...some of these were born in cold rain a few days ago. They are now being snowed on as we speak. A pretty harsh April up here in WI. If this continues as weather improves I will question whether I will use this bull again. Bulls from our source have given us fantastic results in calving ease and gain over the years. I just have to wonder if this particular bull is providing us with more "dumb" calves than typical...time will tell as will my sanity! :???:

 

[therehegoes]

cold crappy weather delays the sucking of some calves. Troubles calving can also delay the sucking instinct. They for some reason get "stupid". We have more that a few this year but it was weather related.

Gotta say though colostrum is best absorbed in the first two hours after birth, 6 they will still absorb, but after that it starts to diminish, and requires more colostrum to get the proper amount of antibodies to fight infection. After 24 hours little if not none is absorbed.
Calves are born with zero immunity. Nothing from the dam is transfer to the calf during gestation. It is the colostrum that give the calf its fighting chance.
By not monitoring this closer the calf is more suseptable to disease out breaks. Will not be able to fight of scours, infectious diseases, pnemomia and anything else that comes their way.
As well they become bacteria and virus factories shedding obscene amounts of disease in their poop, urine, snot, saliva. This inturn increases the threshold of bacteria and virus in the area the calves are in. Increased threshold puts stress on the calves which received timely colostrum, stressing their system making them more suseptable to scours, ibr, bvb and any thing else under the sun.
If you have a herd health program, you pretty much tossed it out the window where the calves are concerned. If there is one thing to be vigilant about it is timely ingestion of colostrum.
What happens in the first 2-6 hours of life sets the tone for the rest of their life. You might not see the results from this, but i guarantee you the feed lot guys will
Colostrum has other benifits as well. Extra fat, carbs, protiens that a new born calf needs to get a good start.

Sorry for the rant...wait, no I am not...I think

Interesting points...I haven't been as vigilant over the past years as all seemed to start nursing early...possibly not as quickly as you mention, but typically in 12 hours or so, which was the timing my vet always drove home.

I do know what its like to have a group of stressed calves...I had a huge health issue with sick calves back in '96...could have been a slow pace of nursing...all I know is I was medicating many calves.

I hope I can say we've made up for any lack of vigilance by vaccinating our herd with the complete spectrum and with our weaned heifers and steers they get 45 days off the cow, fully on feed, and both vaccinations and boosters before selling. We seem to top the sale in SE MN each fall when we sell...typically to the same buyer, so maybe we are making up for these problems with later care?

Your weather point is well taken...I may shoot for May 1 calving vs. April 1 next year. This April has been miserably muddy and cold. Typically our cattle are cleaned up well by now as we move them into a fresh calving paddock prior to calving, but instead this year have clean bags overall but more hard clumps of manure than typical in front of the bag and on the hind-quarters. A place a few of these dumb ones can't seem to get past to find the clean teat. Nothing more fun to watch than a new calf suck focused on the few balls of manure for the first 12 hours instead of the teat right ahead of it. Can't be good. But again, typically by April the cattle have really cleaned up nicely.

Thanks for the rant...good points!

 

[therehegoes]

One more question...if this continues on I'm considering using on of these oral supplements that is squirted into the mouth as soon after birth as possible. Anyone find value in these...especially if some calves aren't getting on the teat as quickly as hoped?

thanks for everyones comments! :nod:

 

[rockridgecattle]

I have not tried the squirt in their mouth stuff, and that might be a good idea. We have on hand though a couple bags of dried colostrum just incase. We calve march april, and have to say this year has been one of the worst for cold weather stress. We pushed calving back to mid march rather that the beginning in hopes of missing the worst. But this year...Three calves had to be tubed with colostrum right after birth because they were very chilled and might not have made it other wise.
We too normaly move out our pairs on to a small pasture by now. But this cold has delayed the snow melt and we had to keep them back for a bit. We are starting to see the stress of crowding now.
i had just read a leaflet the vet sent out from a drug company about scour management. It recommended 1000 sq ft per pair to aleveate the crowding stress. Preferred 2000 sq ft per pair. It was just one of the recommedations but a good one.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

First, RRC is dead-on about the timing of the colostrum. If you don't get it into the calf before 24 hours - forget it. Than, yes, you may need to give it a manmade product - I know there is something vets give them, but I'm not familiar with what it is in the case of a calf not getting it's colostrum. BUT, you should have some powder colostrum to mix up & give the calf PRIOR to 6 HOURS old.
Second, is your area Selenium deficient. I believe Wi is. What are you feeding for minerals? Loose minerals or lick blocks? Are your minerals supplimented with high doses of SE? Your calves probably (most likely!) need a shot of BoSe at birth (Se suppliment) - must be purchased from Vet.
Se deficiency shows up in calves as "dumb suckers" mainly because Se deficiency affects large muscles - the tongue is a large muscle.
3rd, yes bad weather has a MAJOR affect on the calf's ability to get right up & have the energy & smarts to find the teat and actually suck.
4th, also hard calving also affects the calf's ability to suck.

I hear it all the time "I never had this problem before" - well, nutritional problems or management problems have a way of "finally" biting you in the butt. "If" the herd is SE def, and you had bad weather, and/or had long labor due to large calf, etc. = dumb - weak calves.
Hope the rest of the calves do well, but I sure would check with your vet about BoSe and I would watch the timing of the colostrum.

 

[TexasBred]

Check the Selenium level in the mineral you've been feeding your cattle. Calves should receive a fairly good dose of selenium via placental transfer. If the selenium level is 50 ppm or more in the mineral apparently then they aren't eating enough of it.

 

[therehegoes]

Thanks for all the input...we have looked into Selenium issues in the past...nutritionally we're in good shape. Parts of WI are deficient, but not in our area.

As mentioned by many and the main reason we've determined is the bad weather conditions. Now that the weather is FINALLY improving, our last 5-6 calves are nursing just fine.

My last problem calf can't seem to get past the front left quarter, but its now enough to keep him going and he'll figure out there are three other teats on his own soon enough...luckily the dam is a heavy milker.

Whew...I had not been that frustrated in a long time. Hopefully things continue to improve! Thanks again everyone.

 

[Chaty]

I keep the supplement ASAP Nursemate and squirt it into the mouth and the tongue absorbs most of it. I do it slowly if I can and it seems to help with the stupid calf business. they are up and going in less than a hr. Yep the BoSe is very important too and I keep a bottle for my cattle and goats too. Also I keep Vitamin E gel caps jsut incase I need them and it helps too with the calves ability to nurse. But the ASAP has helped alot and I think I get it st http://www.valleyvet.com not to expensive either. I keep a small herd with about 20 cows and get 22 to 25 tubes when I order each year. This seems to work for me...