to what age do you keep your cows?

[ANAZAZI]

How about if the heifers aren't outproducing their dams perhaps, but are still outperforming the rest of the herd?

To earn a place in the herd the new heifer only needs to outperform the worst cow in the herd. Getting rid of that worst cow and keeping a heifer from a good cow - that is improvement or even progress.

To assume that every heifer will outperform their Dams is plain silly.
To assume that every heifer, "barring the culls" will outperform their Dams is actually saying nothing.

 

[Dave]

About 9 months or from whenever I buy her until about the first week in October. She has to be one heck of a cow to get to stay here over the winter. Those kind get to stay as long as they produce like that.

 

[WalnutCrest]

To earn a place in the herd the new heifer only needs to outperform the worst cow in the herd. Getting rid of that worst cow and keeping a heifer from a good cow - that is improvement or even progress.

To assume that every heifer will outperform their Dams is plain silly.
To assume that every heifer, "barring the culls" will outperform their Dams is actually saying nothing.

I totally agree. 100%.

I'll take it even further ... to assume that all of the granddaughters will outperform all of the grandmothers is also plain silly. While many should, not all will.

 

[Nesikep]

And it's going to take time to figure out which ones do, or don't.

I think in horses it's well known that some mare families work very well with some stallions.. "Nicking" I think it's called. Cows aren't much different there. While some cows will produce something good no matter the bull, others cows will just get by with some bulls, and excel with others.

 

[glacierridge]

A lot of my cows were bought so I have to guess on age but I'm like bigfoot in that I like to sell them as pairs or bred cows when there is still some life in there. Ten years is about right for most cows here unless they have ears which makes them last a little longer. I don't get to see my cows on a regular basis and it's rough enough country that if they go downhill they won't come back so I'm money ahead keeping my cows young.

We've been doing the same lately too. Selling sets goes easy and a young herd isn't a bad thing.

 

[ANAZAZI]

A lot of my cows were bought so I have to guess on age but I'm like bigfoot in that I like to sell them as pairs or bred cows when there is still some life in there. Ten years is about right for most cows here unless they have ears which makes them last a little longer. I don't get to see my cows on a regular basis and it's rough enough country that if they go downhill they won't come back so I'm money ahead keeping my cows young.

We've been doing the same lately too. Selling sets goes easy and a young herd isn't a bad thing.

Not for a commercial producer; then it is fine, it is also fine if a seedstock producer have a majority of young stock (under evaluation). It is not fine if a seedstock producer have ONLY young stock, then something is wrong, like udders getting bad after the fourth calf or something. Or if the stock really would work at a high age, why on God`s green earth does he not want to show those older cows?

 

[WalnutCrest]

Not for a commercial producer; then it is fine, it is also fine if a seedstock producer have a majority of young stock (under evaluation). It is not fine if a seedstock producer have ONLY young stock, then something is wrong, like udders getting bad after the fourth calf or something. Or if the stock really would work at a high age, why on God`s green earth does he not want to show those older cows?

Exactly.

 

[bulldurham]

To earn a place in the herd the new heifer only needs to outperform the worst cow in the herd. Getting rid of that worst cow and keeping a heifer from a good cow - that is improvement or even progress.

To assume that every heifer will outperform their Dams is plain silly.
To assume that every heifer, "barring the culls" will outperform their Dams is actually saying nothing.

I totally agree. 100%.

I'll take it even further ... to assume that all of the granddaughters will outperform all of the grandmothers is also plain silly. While many should, not all will.

Implicit is that your selection parameters tighten with each generation. Also implicit is that there is not a large variation between your worst cow and your best-- as their shouldn't be!! If you hold the same standard each year, there is no possibility of improvement outside of evolving genotypes.

No one mentioned "every" heifer would outperform-- but barring the cull !!CALVES!!, the large majority of your replacement heifers ( that is, is you used a genetically superior sire) should go on to out produce their dams and especially their grandams.

 

[ANAZAZI]

To earn a place in the herd the new heifer only needs to outperform the worst cow in the herd. Getting rid of that worst cow and keeping a heifer from a good cow - that is improvement or even progress.

To assume that every heifer will outperform their Dams is plain silly.
To assume that every heifer, "barring the culls" will outperform their Dams is actually saying nothing.

I totally agree. 100%.

I'll take it even further ... to assume that all of the granddaughters will outperform all of the grandmothers is also plain silly. While many should, not all will.

No one mentioned "every" heifer would outperform-- but barring the cull !!CALVES!!, the large majority of your replacement heifers ( that is, is you used a genetically superior sire) should go on to out produce their dams and especially their grandams.

If the genetic trend goes up or if it is going down, it is still possible to find some young individual that is worthy compared to the older ones.

Let us say genetic trend is going up, and 40% of the heifers are better than the cows, so "barring the culls" we have improvement.
Or genetic trend is pointing downwards and only 20% are worthy heifers, but "barring the culls" we have improvement!

By saying "barring the culls" genetic trend is taken out of the equation. You did not say anything. Hot air.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Implicit is that your selection parameters tighten with each generation. Also implicit is that there is not a large variation between your worst cow and your best-- as their shouldn't be!! If you hold the same standard each year, there is no possibility of improvement outside of evolving genotypes.

Huh?

No breeder anywhere wants to go backwards, or stand exactly still, self evident.

If there is variation at all, it matters to replace the worst cow. If there is no variation at all within the cow herd, why would heifers be better? By useing "better" bulls? The only situation (albeit extremely theoretical) where all cows are equal is when all cows are perfect.
Improvement implies variation.

There IS no improvement outside of evolving genotypes.
Perhaps you meant something else?
If you for example refer to say mutations, they would not help if standards are the same every year, as the mutations would not be promoted by the breeder.

Again you said nothing. Why do post without saying anything? Using the word "implicit" does not count...

 

[bulldurham]

Implicit is that your selection parameters tighten with each generation. Also implicit is that there is not a large variation between your worst cow and your best-- as their shouldn't be!! If you hold the same standard each year, there is no possibility of improvement outside of evolving genotypes.

Huh?

If there is variation at all, it matters to replace the worst cow. If there is no variation at all within the cow herd, why would heifers be better? By useing "better" bulls? The only situation (albeit extremely theoretical) where all cows are equal is when all cows are perfect.
Improvement implies variation.

If there is a large quality variation in your herd, your best cow could have a calf that is not nearly as good as she is but still better than many others cows in your herd.

If there is not a large amount of quality variation in your herd, and your best cow has a calf that is not nearly as good as she is, then chances are the heifer calf isn't better than any of the cows in your herd. IF she can't or doesn't come close to rivaling her dam, how could she rival any of the other cows who are of very similar quality as her dam???

ANd yes, even w/ no variation in your cow herd, by using better bulls your genetic trend should always be going up. Your ability to select superior sires will ultimately determine what % are 'worthy.' Obviously the degree of superiority of the sire relative to the cow herd will determine what degree of superiority the calves are to their dam.

 

[ANAZAZI]

A heifer that is no better than any of the cows is simply a cull. What is your point?

 

[bulldurham]

There IS no improvement outside of evolving genotypes.

I can improve your herd simply but culling the worst cows. No reproduction even has to take place.

 

[bulldurham]

A heifer that is no better than any of the cows is simply a cull. What is your point?

If your selection parameters stay constant, by using vastly superior sires, the % of heifers who out perform their dams should be ever increasing.

 

[Big Cheese]

There IS no improvement outside of evolving genotypes.

I can improve your herd simply but culling the worst cows. No reproduction even has to take place.

If you cull his "worst" cows with no reproduction how are you planning on replacing those culls? How does that improve the herd? You lose production by not replacing.

 

[bigbull338]

if you have top cows bred to top bulls then most all of your heifers are keepers.i can sell my top heifers and buy back producing cows cows cheaper than i can raise the heifers.but i might keep 1 or 2 because of their bloodlines.

 

[WalnutCrest]

So, what happens if the genetically superior bull wasn't. What if you were wrong?

If you're wrong, and your herd is super young, you can go backwards VERY quickly and waste years if you are routinely selling / culling your oldest cows.

 

[bulldurham]

So, what happens if the genetically superior bull wasn't. What if you were wrong?

If you're wrong, and your herd is super young, you can go backwards VERY quickly and waste years if you are routinely selling / culling your oldest cows.

More reason to use HIGH ACCURACY PROVEN BULLS.

 

[Nesikep]

This is a bit like vehicles.. You might like the new Charger, it may have be technically superior in all ways, but if you have a '53 Corvette the thing is worth a small fortune.

When breeding 2 animals together to produce 1, you're losing half the genetics, perhaps they're the better half, or the worst half, but most likely it'll be a bit of both.. If you breed the same 2 animals repeatedly, collectively the offspring will have all the genetics of their two parents. This can be valuable as well.

 

[Big Cheese]

You cull cows because they are old, not producing, or problems and replace them with a replacement heifer of your choice out of your herd. Superior or not, you know where the replacement heifer out of your herd is coming from so you have an idea what to expect. I feel like thats better then going to the sale and buying something you have no idea where it came from. There is always a chance you take no matter where your replacement comes from but I would rather take that chance with a heifer that I know where it came from and what it could turn into. Thats just my opinion.