to what age do you keep your cows?

[Nesikep]

When we bought our original herd of cows, they had all had pelvic measurements... I wish I knew what the numbers were.. but they all "Passed" according to the vet.. we had so many problems with our first season it wasn't funny. I can also tell you they had a sufficient pelvic measurement to make most of the insides fall out!

I also don't think you should measure a cows performance just from how big her calves are (or whatever other criteria you're using),.. but how her daughters perform.. I know I've had great cows that have had daughters that routinely disappointed, and other not so great cows that have produced great daughters nearly every time.

Edit: dun, evidently that guy went to extremes... I have some pretty big mature cows, and I'm not aiming to get higher birthweights from them (it just happens).. but I have a number of them that routinely plop out 130 lb calves with no problems... As I'm trying to reduce the size of my mature cows I'm going to want to get a little away from those bombers. Your cows will have different challenges than mine (like fescue).. I wouldn't claim mine would perform on fescue regardless of the breeding I did for it, unless they actually had to eat it.

 

[JHH]

Progress is one of those deals that means something different to almost every producer. There was a yokel around here that claimed unless you are pulling 10% of your calves your not challenging your cows. He is no longer in business, he challenged his cows right out of business. We challenge our cows to calf on their own, raise a good calf and breed back all on high endophyte fescue without supplements.

I do to Dun. My thing is this. I have finished calving my fall herd ( well most of it got one left) guess that makes her spring herd now. But anyway after I wean these calves I have a few OLD cows 13-14 and with the market the way it is I am inclined to sell them,just hate to get rid of a good producing cow. They have jumped all the hoops and are still here.

Now on your calving ease deal. What are you selecting for as far as epds or do you? I personally don't like my birthweight number to be breed average. I am a firm believer that they should be able to have an 85 lb calf unassisted. Saying that I hav also used 3027 but don't have any daughters so don't know how that would work. I do know one yr I had a whole bunch of 100 lb calvs but only one needed assistance. I don't breed for that it just happened. so I don't really pay a whole lot of attention to epds .

 

[angus9259]

By selling all of my fourth to sixth calvers to others I would be wasting all of my herd progress.

Where does the "progress" come from then? One can always reason that the progress comes from other farms through their bulls. Let us just hope that the breeders of these bulls do not think like you then, for what would it mean if they too waste their best cows at six to eight years old? :bang: :bang:

Just to be clear - if you read the entire posting this is NOT my approach - I'm just laying out the reasoning.

That said, right or wrong, one of the largest contributors to the angus bull breed (Gardiners) DOES follow this approach with great financial success. I personally do not use their bulls, but understand their approach even though it differs from my own.

Finally, I'm not sure I heard anyone say anything about "wasting" a six to eight year old cow unless "wasting" means selling it when it's value is the highest in a belief that she likely (hopefully) has given up several heifers into your herd that could outperform her. If one has produced no heifers that could outperform their dams then there is certainly no reason to retain heifers and sell the dams. The ARGUMENT says that we SHOULD be able to produce heifers that can out produce their dams - but, perhaps it's a faulty argument.

 

[angus9259]

We challenge our cows to calf on their own, raise a good calf and breed back all on high endophyte fescue without supplements.

Then "progress" for you would be defined as producing animals that can produce even better calves, breed back, on even less endophyte fescue correct? Do you use bulls/semen hoping to produce animals that will do even better than their dams? Is it your hope that each generation can improve over the previous? Or perhaps future generations don't have to raise a "better" calf on "less fescue" in which case perhaps you're not looking for "progress" but maintenance of an existing norm?

 

[dun]

Progress is one of those deals that means something different to almost every producer. There was a yokel around here that claimed unless you are pulling 10% of your calves your not challenging your cows. He is no longer in business, he challenged his cows right out of business. We challenge our cows to calf on their own, raise a good calf and breed back all on high endophyte fescue without supplements.

I do to Dun. My thing is this. I have finished calving my fall herd ( well most of it got one left) guess that makes her spring herd now. But anyway after I wean these calves I have a few OLD cows 13-14 and with the market the way it is I am inclined to sell them,just hate to get rid of a good producing cow. They have jumped all the hoops and are still here.

Now on your calving ease deal. What are you selecting for as far as epds or do you? I personally don't like my birthweight number to be breed average. I am a firm believer that they should be able to have an 85 lb calf unassisted. Saying that I hav also used 3027 but don't have any daughters so don't know how that would work. I do know one yr I had a whole bunch of 100 lb calvs but only one needed assistance. I don't breed for that it just happened. so I don't really pay a whole lot of attention to epds .

I don;t pay much attention to BW, for EPDs I select by breed average or above for maternal and direct calving ease. After those I look to WW and milk if it's a cow I would want to keep a heifer out of. Since we'vwe cut so far down, there really aren;t any cows that I wouldn;t keep a heifer from and none of the registered ones I wouldn;t keep a bull out of.

 

[dun]

We challenge our cows to calf on their own, raise a good calf and breed back all on high endophyte fescue without supplements.

Then "progress" for you would be defined as producing animals that can produce even better calves, breed back, on even less endophyte fescue correct? Do you use bulls/semen hoping to produce animals that will do even better than their dams? Is it your hope that each generation can improve over the previous? Or perhaps future generations don't have to raise a "better" calf on "less fescue" in which case perhaps you're not looking for "progress" but maintenance of an existing norm?

We're looking to maintain the status quo. We had to cut way down so we only have a couple of dozen cows left so it's easy. The hard part is evaluating the heifers at weaning and deciding which ones will go to the feed lot. Lately it seems like our herd size is starting to creep back up.

 

[ANAZAZI]

By selling all of my fourth to sixth calvers to others I would be wasting all of my herd progress.

Where does the "progress" come from then? One can always reason that the progress comes from other farms through their bulls. Let us just hope that the breeders of these bulls do not think like you then, for what would it mean if they too waste their best cows at six to eight years old? :bang: :bang:

Just to be clear - if you read the entire posting this is NOT my approach - I'm just laying out the reasoning.

That said, right or wrong, one of the largest contributors to the angus bull breed (Gardiners) DOES follow this approach with great financial success. I personally do not use their bulls, but understand their approach even though it differs from my own.

Finally, I'm not sure I heard anyone say anything about "wasting" a six to eight year old cow unless "wasting" means selling it when it's value is the highest in a belief that she likely (hopefully) has given up several heifers into your herd that could outperform her. If one has produced no heifers that could outperform their dams then there is certainly no reason to retain heifers and sell the dams. The ARGUMENT says that we SHOULD be able to produce heifers that can out produce their dams - but, perhaps it's a faulty argument.

I am not questioning the financial success, I am questioning how it can be right, from a breeding perspective to rid oneself of a quality cow way too early.
The cow itself is not wasted, she is probably full of good meat that can make many good meals. Or she can be sold to someone that crossbreeds for a living, and she can be the mother of several good baldies.
But either killed for meat or sold to make baldies, the cow is wasted in the sense that she is out of the breeding programme, when she is still able to contribute to it.

And yes, it is a faulty argument. It is based more on EPD:s than on common sense.

 

[AllForage]

Progress, progress, progress.... It becomes nauseating.

Do you keep heifers from all your cows or your best cows? It seems to me that MOST people have some definition of progress they are attempting to achieve in selecting their replacements. Then it simply becomes a question of how you're measuring progress. Teat size? Forage ability? Fertility? $B? the red ones? the black ones? the cross eyed ones? the quiet ones? the loud ones? fat ones? skinny ones? the balanced ones? It may nauseate you, but unless you have no selection criteria at all and/or no reason behind your selection criteria, you too are attempting to progress your herd. Perhaps your system is completely random and you don't care if you progress or regress. In which case....carry on.

I need to concede a couple things and qualify my post. I'm speaking to breeding stock. To use the industry buzzword of progress is nauseating. What does that mean? Super high marbling yet post legged and can't walk? Super high growth and terrible mothering? It's a lame word that should be defined in what context. Everybody has a different definition and idea.

I agree that quick gen turnover can be appropriate in certain situations. One would be a breed up scenario. Another would be terminal type breeding. Since growth is highly heritable I can see a situation where increasing growth and loin can be very important deoending on a market.

Where this system falls apart is in a maternal based breeding situation in my opinion. Or one of the "do everything" types. Every trait is on a teeter totter with others. Growth - longevity, milk - fertility. Not keeping older cows around does nothing to verify a stockman is taking a more wholistic balanced approach in his decisions. Personally if I don't see any old cows I'm walking. That's just me. You run the risk of perpetuating problems by not having older cows to verify. One other important thing to consider. When working within a specific line (closed or not) the randomness of genes obviously still occurs. A cow can give you average ( sorry I know that is a bad word) calves for say 5-6 years. Then whammy she produces an animal that takes you to the next plateau! To me it is short sighted to turn them over that quick.

 

[robert]

Ditto AllForage.

 

[Chi496]

By no means was I trying to tell anyone how to manage their herd. In my situation I find more value in 3-5 year old cows with current marketable genetics. I also like to capitalize on marketing older cows with a less up to date pedigree. My program isn't based upon sell feeders. My business model is based upon producing and marketing show stock. That's why it is prudent to me to keep my herd up to date with the latest genetic options.

 

[Nesikep]

Well worded and I agree with you AllForage

One of the Gelbvieh breeders I went to visit told me the grandmother of one of the bulls lived to 28 years old and had 24 calves.. and she was still a range cow. I like that.

Then I have a shorthorn cross cow, she's 7 years old and has yet to give me a heifer.. never got one from her and the Gelbvieh bull, which I think would have been a great calf. I have a few of her cousins, etc, and they grew to be too big cows, she's a little smaller and has a excellent milk and a good structure.. Her cousins didn't produce calves that did well, but I'd like to try one from her... before she's TOO OLD

 

[WalnutCrest]

Cull hard before their 3rd birthday ... hold the 'graduates' until they're either open or are producing a calf in the bottom 10% (ish) of their contemporaries ... then it's time to meet the butcher.

 

[JWBrahman]

Just a simple fact:
On average a cow pays for itself at 6. Years 6-10 are the profit years for a cow calf producer.
If you want to see cattle that would freak out the animal rights crowd visit one of these intensive grazing operations in my area.

http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/crops_liv ... ef_cattle/

 

[Brand]

I raise all my own cattle and my own replacement always keeping heifers and selling cows as purebred buyers want them.

Many locals where I live continue buying and selling cows constantly they have fun but they just spin their wheels trading money and playing Missouri cattle farmer. Many will rent pasture what ever price to get the other guy off the place then they go buy cows any kind any where. But it gives them a good excuse to drive around town all day with there new bale bed pickups and goosenecks.

 

[Big Cheese]

When we cull the first thing we look at is teeth. If the cow has bad or no teeth then they are gone. If they under perform in raising their calf back to back years then they are gone. If they are a problem then they are gone. If they get poor then they are gone. That's pretty much what we do. As long as they perform and keep raising good calves then I'll keep em until they they meet that criteria. No matter how old they are.

 

[bulldurham]

By selling all of my fourth to sixth calvers to others I would be wasting all of my herd progress.

Where does the "progress" come from then? One can always reason that the progress comes from other farms through their bulls. Let us just hope that the breeders of these bulls do not think like you then, for what would it mean if they too waste their best cows at six to eight years old? :bang: :bang:

Just to be clear - if you read the entire posting this is NOT my approach - I'm just laying out the reasoning.

That said, right or wrong, one of the largest contributors to the angus bull breed (Gardiners) DOES follow this approach with great financial success. I personally do not use their bulls, but understand their approach even though it differs from my own.

Finally, I'm not sure I heard anyone say anything about "wasting" a six to eight year old cow unless "wasting" means selling it when it's value is the highest in a belief that she likely (hopefully) has given up several heifers into your herd that could outperform her. If one has produced no heifers that could outperform their dams then there is certainly no reason to retain heifers and sell the dams. The ARGUMENT says that we SHOULD be able to produce heifers that can out produce their dams - but, perhaps it's a faulty argument.

I am not questioning the financial success, I am questioning how it can be right, from a breeding perspective to rid oneself of a quality cow way too early.
The cow itself is not wasted, she is probably full of good meat that can make many good meals. Or she can be sold to someone that crossbreeds for a living, and she can be the mother of several good baldies.
But either killed for meat or sold to make baldies, the cow is wasted in the sense that she is out of the breeding programme, when she is still able to contribute to it.

And yes, it is a faulty argument. It is based more on EPD:s than on common sense.

I have to agree w/ the angus9259--- The ASSUMPTION is that you have limited acreage and must always make the choice between retaining the heifer or selling the cow. If your heifers won't outproduce their dam, then you are selecting the wrong bulls.

 

[Nesikep]

How about if the heifers aren't outproducing their dams perhaps, but are still outperforming the rest of the herd?

For arguments sake you have found a cow that is perfect for you.. she raises a nice calf that's correctly structured and milk/breeds well, etc. Why would you get rid of her? Breeding cattle follows the laws of diminishing returns.. More and more effort needs to be put in to get less and less results once the evident problems are dealt with. Real life of course you'll never get the perfect cow, of you'll change your mind about one of your ideals along the way, but I've found that I don't judge a cow by how she compares to her dam, I compare her to how she does against the rest of the herd, and for her dam too, If she makes calves that are better than average, she gets to stay as long as she's productive.
Culling cows young makes it real easy to chase fads and never settle down on anything, and certainly doesn't lead to consistency

 

[bulldurham]

How about if the heifers aren't outproducing their dams perhaps, but are still outperforming the rest of the herd?

For arguments sake you have found a cow that is perfect for you.. she raises a nice calf that's correctly structured and milk/breeds well, etc. Why would you get rid of her? Breeding cattle follows the laws of diminishing returns.. More and more effort needs to be put in to get less and less results once the evident problems are dealt with. Real life of course you'll never get the perfect cow, of you'll change your mind about one of your ideals along the way, but I've found that I don't judge a cow by how she compares to her dam, I compare her to how she does against the rest of the herd, and for her dam too, If she makes calves that are better than average, she gets to stay as long as she's productive.
Culling cows young makes it real easy to chase fads and never settle down on anything, and certainly doesn't lead to consistency

If they're a quality breeder, the herd in general has a similar level of consistency and performance. The scenario you suggest would mean you have 1 cow that is substantially better than the rest. If using superior sires, the collective calf crop, baring the culls, should go on to out produce their dams collectively.

 

[Nesikep]

If they're a quality breeder there shouldn't be much room for improvement either.

For myself, I know a lot of the animals in my herd have lots of room for improvement.. So any cow that with reasonable reliability can produce calves that are average or better gets to stay and give me those better calves.

 

[ANAZAZI]

What an odd herd indeed if the only animal in it that is not as good as my new heifer, is its mother!