Cattle Rack Rancher
Well-known member
BW: +4.5, WW: +42, YW: +88, Milk: +19, Tot Mat: +40,
YLG Gain: +46, IMF: -.03, REA: +.1, Fat -.012
Tear Him Up ...
- Thread starter Cattle Rack Rancher
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BW: +4.5, WW: +42, YW: +88, Milk: +19, Tot Mat: +40,
YLG Gain: +46, IMF: -.03, REA: +.1, Fat -.012
Avalon
Well-known member
Before anyone tears in to this one perhaps you give us some idea of what he will be used for. Will you be breeding him to heifers? How old is he how much does he weigh? What is his sire and MGS? Producing replacements? Feeders? etc....
What is his job Description?
What is his job Description?
OP
OP
Cattle Rack Rancher
Well-known member
Avalon":3reqk31x said:
I bought him to breed up some replacement heifers in my herd. This is him on pasture in the fall. I can't remember specifically what his S.C. was but I know he was well above average although you can't see it in the picture. He won't be used on heifers. He is 3 1/2 years old in this picture and I'd guess he weighs @ 2000 lbs. His Sire is Ankonian Elixir and he's out of a cow from a very good local Angus herd. I have my own ideas of where I think his strengths and weaknesses are, but I'd like a few more opinions. Thanks.
Avalon
Well-known member
In that case. I would prefer him to be longer bodied with a deeper hip maybe cleaner through the chest floor. His production EPD's are acceptible. However there are some bulls getting into the 100's now on YR weight. Some might complian about BW being a bit to high but with mature cows its wouldnt bother me a bit. Milk is fine. Carcass he's good on fat but the other numbers leave a bit to be desired. No matter what others think its all in what he produces for YOU. Numbers are just tools. The big question is how he will improve YOUR herd. You will find that out in his first daughters get into production.
highvoltagecattleco
Well-known member
BW is a little high for heifers
highvoltagecattleco":31jw2gnv said:
:???:
Cattle Rack Rancher":31jw2gnv said:
Tod Dague
Well-known member
I think you are probably better off not using a 100 to 100+ YW bull to produce replacement heifers. From in front of the flank forward he looks fine to me. He seems to be a bit high in the flank and somewhat lacking in muscle. I would mind if he was longer also. Nice straight top and looks to be a bit hungry which may contribute to some of the lacking muscle.
CattleHand
Well-known member
The hips seem small. Has plenty of fat for sure.
Keren
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:lol: This post shows just how dangerous it can be assessing an animal by a photograph.
Tod thinks the bull looks thin.
CattleHand thinks the bull looks fat.
lol
To be honest, FROM THIS PICTURE he doesnt do it for me. The two biggest issues I see with him is the lack of length, and lack of hindquarter. If I was getting picky, I'd like him to be deeper chested ('flatter'), big more sprung in the rib, show more expression of the eye muscle and have a more mature and 'sirey' appearance, considering he is 3+ yrs old.
The bottom line is how well he does with your cows, and the proof is in the pudding (in this case the pudding is the calves). But, to be honest I wouldnt use him for replacements. In a terminal, beef producing situation yes, he would do just fine, but this is not the phenotype I would want in my replacement heifers.
Tod thinks the bull looks thin.
CattleHand thinks the bull looks fat.
lol
To be honest, FROM THIS PICTURE he doesnt do it for me. The two biggest issues I see with him is the lack of length, and lack of hindquarter. If I was getting picky, I'd like him to be deeper chested ('flatter'), big more sprung in the rib, show more expression of the eye muscle and have a more mature and 'sirey' appearance, considering he is 3+ yrs old.
The bottom line is how well he does with your cows, and the proof is in the pudding (in this case the pudding is the calves). But, to be honest I wouldnt use him for replacements. In a terminal, beef producing situation yes, he would do just fine, but this is not the phenotype I would want in my replacement heifers.
I know this is probably a very stupid question but I sure can't find a better place to make an ass of myself.
I understand BW=birth weight etc. but what does +4.5,+42 and such mean? Does it mean that he was four and a half pounds heavier than his parents were at BW? And if someone wouldn't mind explaining the whole thing to me... I have read about EPD's but I must be thick sculled. It would be very appreciated! I understand if it is to much of a pain, I just haven't been able to find a book titled " COWS FOR DUMMY'S " I am very interested and read anything I can get my hands on and all the post so I can learn but I sure can't follow some of the stuff you guys write.
I figure if I can't understand the talk I probably have no biz in cow biz, but what can I say... I am bound and determined! Thanks!!
East Caney
Well-known member
jwhisperj":16adrggs said:Cattle Rack Rancher":16adrggs said:
I know this is probably a very stupid question but I sure can't find a better place to make an ass of myself.
I understand BW=birth weight etc. but what does +4.5,+42 and such mean? Does it mean that he was four and a half pounds heavier than his parents were at BW? And if someone wouldn't mind explaining the whole thing to me... I have read about EPD's but I must be thick sculled. It would be very appreciated! I understand if it is to much of a pain, I just haven't been able to find a book titled " COWS FOR DUMMY'S " I am very interested and read anything I can get my hands on and all the post so I can learn but I sure can't follow some of the stuff you guys write.
Thanks!!
JWhisper,
I won't get extremely detailed as I don't wish to hijack this thread. There is plenty of website reading that will tell you about EPDs. To keep it simple, compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges...angus to angus, beefmaster to beefmaster, etc. Some sites will try and provide "across breed" epds. EPDs are "expected progenty differences". Just like it sounds, it's how you can expect an animal's progeny (calves) to perform compared to another animal of the same breed. If bull A has a birth weight (BW) epd of 2.5 and bull B has a BW epd of 4.5, under like circumstaces, one would expect bull B's calf to weigh 2 more lbs at birth than bull A's calf. The same goes for all other EPDs...it's a comparison amongst the breed.
I apologize for the partial hijacking. I can's see the picture at this time (from this computer). I'd love to comment as soon as I can. Hope this helps you who didn't comprehend EPDs.
EC
jwhisperj":2qgdw7se said:
A 4.5 BW EPD means you would expect the bull's calves to weigh 4.5 more pounds at birth than if you bred those same cows under the same conditions to a bull of the same breed with a BW EPD of 0. Or you would expect them to weigh 2.5 lbs more than if you bred the same cows to a bull with a 2 lb BW EPD. YW works the same. You would expect the calves sired by a bull with a WW EPD of 100 to weigh 50 more pounds as yearlings than if you bred the cows to a bull with a WW EPD of 50. EPDs will never tell you what something will weigh. They just allow you to compare the relative breeding merit of breeding animals. PM me if you need to.
CRR,
Boy this is a tough one to judge.
He has his good points and his bad points and IMO both good and bad are somewhat extreme.
As you know the cow will donate 50% to his off spring, so the question is will she makeup for his bad points. Who knows? I sure don't.
If I were considering buying him, I probably wouldn't, unless the price was right as he just doesn't have what I look for in a bull. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have what you are looking for.
Obviously I am only judging him on what I can see in one pic, so after looking at the pic long and hard, here is an old time trade secret I used.
As I am working with a pic on a computer screen it's a whole lot easier then if I were viewing him in person.
I simply placed a 3 X 5 card against the screen and blocked out the rear 2/3 of him and only looked at from behind his front shoulders forward.
There I found many good attributes, (muscular, well built, small head) except for his short front legs.
But when I blocked out his front 1/3 and ignored his penis sheath and whiskers, I see a cow, not a bull. And that is where I see all his bad features (poor body lines, barrel belly, lack of muscle).
If he were a yearling I could excuse some of his faults, but not at 3 ½.
Sorry, but hey, I got one that looks even worse then him. I'll post a pic of him if we get some sun light tomorrow.
SL
Boy this is a tough one to judge.
He has his good points and his bad points and IMO both good and bad are somewhat extreme.
As you know the cow will donate 50% to his off spring, so the question is will she makeup for his bad points. Who knows? I sure don't.
If I were considering buying him, I probably wouldn't, unless the price was right as he just doesn't have what I look for in a bull. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have what you are looking for.
Obviously I am only judging him on what I can see in one pic, so after looking at the pic long and hard, here is an old time trade secret I used.
As I am working with a pic on a computer screen it's a whole lot easier then if I were viewing him in person.
I simply placed a 3 X 5 card against the screen and blocked out the rear 2/3 of him and only looked at from behind his front shoulders forward.
There I found many good attributes, (muscular, well built, small head) except for his short front legs.
But when I blocked out his front 1/3 and ignored his penis sheath and whiskers, I see a cow, not a bull. And that is where I see all his bad features (poor body lines, barrel belly, lack of muscle).
If he were a yearling I could excuse some of his faults, but not at 3 ½.
Sorry, but hey, I got one that looks even worse then him. I'll post a pic of him if we get some sun light tomorrow.
SL
If that bull were in a pasture on property next to mine, I would be sure to have really really good fences.
Chuckie
Chuckie
OP
OP
Cattle Rack Rancher
Well-known member
Chuckie":gah22lb6 said:
Thanks for your honesty. LOL. I bought this bull as a yearling. He was the third top selling Angus bull out of a group of 50 odd bulls at the local bull test station. He was an awesome looking calf. To say that I'm disappointed with the way he turned out would be an understatement. On the up side, though, the calves I sent in off him this year actually were the high selling steers in Brandon for their weight class the day that I sent them in so he does produce calves true to what he looked like as a calf. As far as what sort of heifers he'll produce and whether they will be good as long term cows in teh herd remains to be seen. I know the guy that I sold my heifers to last year and teh ones that he's fed and bred look really good if a little over fed. I thought we had a deal where I was supposed to get first chance to buy them back, unfortunately he seems to have selective memory loss and decided to sell them with the rest of teh group that he's got there. I think I'm pretty happy overall with his heifers this year (but we'll feed and breed these ones at home this year). I guess I wonder how much of that bull's weak back end is genetic and how much is that 'hot' feed they use at teh test station that seems to be so hard on their stomachs. As far as the feedback goes. Yep, that whole weak flank and back end kinda trouble me to, although from teh back, he is relatively wide if not deep. The BW is a non-issue. #1 because I'm not using him on heifers, #2 because I believe the average for an Angus bull right now is @ 2.2 so I think adding 1.8 lbs to your average calf isn't going to make much difference on calving ease. My opinion is that if you are using and Angus bull and you are having to pull calves, then you have a problem with your cows. Anyway, thanks to everyone for your opinions.
CRR I know how it feels. Pedro was a grat looking 12-13 month old bull, developed on fescue and no grain. When we got rid of him as a 2 year old his hind quarters were exactly the same as when we bought him, just didn;t develop past that point. The catch is that his calves have great rear ends and are pretty impressive calves. The cows we bred him to all have big butts so maybe it's their affect and not his.
If, and it's a mighty big if, we ever decide to use natural service instead of 100% AI again I'll wait for a 2 year old bull that I like. The really baffling part is that Pedros dam had a good rear and his sire did too. He just didn;t live up to expectations.
After the 10 days of 107-108 degree days last year he came up sterile. Maybe a 42 cm scrotal at 11 months isn;t a good thing.
If, and it's a mighty big if, we ever decide to use natural service instead of 100% AI again I'll wait for a 2 year old bull that I like. The really baffling part is that Pedros dam had a good rear and his sire did too. He just didn;t live up to expectations.
After the 10 days of 107-108 degree days last year he came up sterile. Maybe a 42 cm scrotal at 11 months isn;t a good thing.
Cattle Rack Rancher,
If he has good calves, then I wouldn't care what he looked like. He's on the thin side, but if he gets too big, then he can't be used on a heifer as far as his personal body weight goes. If he normally packs another 200 pounds, with him being a 3 year old, then he might mash them on the ground like a bug on a windshield
We bought a bull that we liked a lot. He was short legged, but really stout and really long. Brought him home, turned him out on green grass and clover and he started losing weight. He was 18 months old and he was turned out with bred cows and about 4 heifers that he would breed.
I don't know if he played scratch and sniff all the time, I always saw him with his face in the clover, but I hate to look at him now. The cows that are feeding thier babies were fat, but not him. If he doesn't show off this spring, I am going to be building a fence on my side of the property, that he can't cross.
So this spring, we will see what he does with the young heifers he bred. But if you come by the house, you'll never see him, because he is way back in the back pasture for a reason.
Chuckie
If he has good calves, then I wouldn't care what he looked like. He's on the thin side, but if he gets too big, then he can't be used on a heifer as far as his personal body weight goes. If he normally packs another 200 pounds, with him being a 3 year old, then he might mash them on the ground like a bug on a windshield
We bought a bull that we liked a lot. He was short legged, but really stout and really long. Brought him home, turned him out on green grass and clover and he started losing weight. He was 18 months old and he was turned out with bred cows and about 4 heifers that he would breed.
I don't know if he played scratch and sniff all the time, I always saw him with his face in the clover, but I hate to look at him now. The cows that are feeding thier babies were fat, but not him. If he doesn't show off this spring, I am going to be building a fence on my side of the property, that he can't cross.
So this spring, we will see what he does with the young heifers he bred. But if you come by the house, you'll never see him, because he is way back in the back pasture for a reason.
Chuckie
