Sub Q

[S&S Farms]

We use needles with a lenghth of 5/8's to give our sub Q's on cows (1/2 inch on calves) You can just poke them dont have to try and tent the skin. Have seen that done and watched the medicine run out the bottom of tented skin as neddle went all the way through. Your cattle will also appreciate you if you use 18 gauge needles for those clear water looking vaccines. You need 16 guage for your thicker ones.


Jeff

 

[Mongoose]

LA-200 is SubQ.

SubQ Injection - Injection given just below the skin, NOT in the muscle.

IM Injection - Injection given in the muscle.

IV Injection - Injection given directly in the vein of the animal.

Does that clear everything up? Read the label and it will tell you how much and what kind of injection is recommended.

 

[Diehard40]

IM shots tend to absorb faster into the blood stream
SQ are a little slower to absorb
quickest way to get something in the blood stream is IV, BUT and I stress this IV should only be used with products labeled to do so. About the only thing we have around here to use IV on is Grass Tetany or Milk Fever.
As far as the tent method for SQ, this is the proper method that is taught in every BQA course or program i have ever seen. it assures that you do not hit the muscle. You do have to be careful not to go through both flaps of skin and shoot it on the ground (even the best have done this more than once). the key is to keep all injections away from any marketable muscle tissue.
AND FINALLY AND MAYBE MOST IMPORTANTLY, ALWAYS ALWAYS READ THE LABEL ON THE HEALTH PRODUCT THAT YOU ARE ADMINISTERING.

 

[Brute 23]

Sub Q - Subcutaneously (sub) meaning under; (cutaneously)of, relating to, or affecting the skin
Ex: Submarine (sub) under; (marine) water

This is interesting. I give the shots by pinching the skin of both cattle and dogs. When the skin is up and away from the muscle, I know and it ensures, that I am not going into the muscle. I have never had any problems but you have to be aware of what you are doing. As with anything.

If you are pulling an inch of skin away from the animal an you just stuck a two inch needle in...... Uh..... you are going to hit muscle or come out the back side. Its not rocket science.

Point the needle directly towards the ground - holding it like you are about to stab something with a knife in your fist - run your hand out and into the side of the animals neck and stab downward - almost parallel to the neck surface. Needle goes in under the skin and does not enter the meat. Ram the vaccine home with your thumb - unless you are using a gun which I doubt. That's another story.

I am not seeing what makes this method so much bettter. If you put a little too much angle, with a good sharp needle you can easily hit the muscle. The only thing that makes is safer is because you are only using one hand so you are less likely to stab the other hand. But you have to be more accurate with the needle because the target zone between the skin and muscle is smaller.

I have seen it done both ways. No doubt that both methods will work and you can do both fast when you have done enough of them... but unless I am missing something... one is no better than the other.

 

[alabama]

The first rule is to give the shot "IC"




IC = In Cow

 

[SPRINGER FARMS MURRAY GRE]

Ok i understand the intramuscular part but i dont know what you mean by subcutaneous ?

"Cutaneous" means skin, "sub" means under.....so......subcutaneous means "under the skin". ;-)

 

[Bez>]

Sub Q - Subcutaneously (sub) meaning under; (cutaneously)of, relating to, or affecting the skin
Ex: Submarine (sub) under; (marine) water

This is interesting. I give the shots by pinching the skin of both cattle and dogs. When the skin is up and away from the muscle, I know and it ensures, that I am not going into the muscle. I have never had any problems but you have to be aware of what you are doing. As with anything.

If you are pulling an inch of skin away from the animal an you just stuck a two inch needle in...... Uh..... you are going to hit muscle or come out the back side. Its not rocket science.

Point the needle directly towards the ground - holding it like you are about to stab something with a knife in your fist - run your hand out and into the side of the animals neck and stab downward - almost parallel to the neck surface. Needle goes in under the skin and does not enter the meat. Ram the vaccine home with your thumb - unless you are using a gun which I doubt. That's another story.

I am not seeing what makes this method so much bettter. If you put a little too much angle, with a good sharp needle you can easily hit the muscle. The only thing that makes is safer is because you are only using one hand so you are less likely to stab the other hand. But you have to be more accurate with the needle because the target zone between the skin and muscle is smaller.

I have seen it done both ways. No doubt that both methods will work and you can do both fast when you have done enough of them... but unless I am missing something... one is no better than the other.

Try doing 500 a day for a week - then tell me what you think.

One method requires two hands and the other one hand - after a while you appreciate that.

Either way - it is always the owners choice - just another option in the bag of tricks.

Regards

Bez>

 

[Mongoose]

I haven't tried the one-handed method yet, but I am going to next time I have to give a shot. Sounds like it works and does a lot better of a job, then pinching the skin. I do have one question for Bez though. You give it in the middle of the neck straight down right? And I have 1" needles, do you go all the way in?

 

[Bez>]

I haven't tried the one-handed method yet, but I am going to next time I have to give a shot. Sounds like it works and does a lot better of a job, then pinching the skin. I do have one question for Bez though. You give it in the middle of the neck straight down right? And I have 1" needles, do you go all the way in?

My preferred spot is just ahead of the shoulder - fairly high in the neck and above the "break" or point in the shoulder - that way if she jumps forward against the squeeze the shoulder hits first - my hand does not get pinched and the syringe stays in my hand - not jerked out - ending up on the ground. It is one of about three recommended spots for needles.

Some folks use another recommended spot high between the shoulder blades for sub Q - OCA / CCA (Ontario Cattlemans Assoc / Canadian Cattlemens Assoc) call this a secondary site - but I find it awkward.

There are other methods that work as well - this is simply mine.

Try it - if it works - great - if not you can keep doing what you have always done.

Sub Q for calves I use 3/4 inch and for cows I use one inch - yes I sink it in all the way.

Bez>

 

[Brute 23]

Try doing 500 a day for a week - then tell me what you think.

Jeepers Sir... you have 500 head. How do you remember all the cattles' names?

Like I said... seen it done both ways. IMHO,,, One is no better than the other. Either one does the job. Go with what ever is easier and more effective for you. Sorry if I don't want a ride on your band-wagon. ;-)

 

[Bez>]

Try doing 500 a day for a week - then tell me what you think.

Jeepers Sir... you have 500 head. How do you remember all the cattles' names?

Like I said... seen it done both ways. IMHO,,, One is no better than the other. Either one does the job. Go with what ever is easier and more effective for you. Sorry if I don't want a ride on your band-wagon. ;-)

I would not own 500 head if you gave them to me - I have done a few stretches in feedlots though. And we own a small outfit now - once upon a time in our younger days we were fairly major players - but age and other circumstances have caught up with us.

I always say it is up to the owner - however if you "search" on various topics - you will learn that the average owner here is a person with less than 10 animals - you will soon learn that what is simple to many of us is very complex, worrisome and difficult to the majority.

Most - no offense to the reader - have no clue on many things. They buy a cow and wonder for months if it will calve out.

After all ANYONE can be a cattleman - look at that dumb old guy and his wife down the road - they are RICH!!!!! We are smarter than them.

Many, many times the very first post will include the word HELP! in the title.

They buy a calf and immediately start worrying because it will not eat hay and grain at three days of age - these are not exaggerations.

They refuse to call a veterinarian unti they have asked for three weeks about why the calf will not stand - or why it has scours - they will call it runny poop.

They will wonder why Summer Flower the calf will not come to them like their dog does - at the whistle - or they will wonder why Blossom the cow does not like them to pet her on the head.

Many of these people will treat their cows and calves better than their own kids. Others should not be allowed to own an animal let alone drive a car.

So it is imperative to at least give them advice that works and finally - options. Because they will not make a decision until they have considered the options for weeks at a time.

They are not all bad people - they just honestly do not know.

No rain on my parade - I just tell folks and they can do with that info what they like.

Regards

Bez>

 

[Brute 23]

You know alot about cattle... no doubt.

I was not going after you. This thread was just getting a little out of hand with this latest and grates way to give a shot thing. Like no one had ever seen it before and it must be the best way. :lol:

I had personaly seen and tried both so I was giving my review of each and how they compare.

Its always good to give options. I totally agree about the atmosphere of the forum. ;-)

 

[msscamp]

Sometimes helps to pinch a tent of their skin and poking needle in there.

That is a very good way to inject yourself instead of the animal. A lot of the vaccines can cause some very nasty problems when that happens, so you may want to rethink your injection technique.

I'm wondering what would be a better way as this is the method I have used thousands of times. My history has showed it to be the eaisest and safest way I've found. How do you create the pocket under the skin to inject the medicine into. I Pinch and pull inject into the pocket created by pinching and pulling. Same as angie except I call it a pocket she called it a tent. I'm not seeing how this method is a very good way to inject myself.

I was taught the one-handed method by a vet when I worked for him apprx 100 years ago. He had self-injected himself with Bangs and developed Undulant Fever, so he was adamant about not tenting the skin to give Sub-Q injections. When done correctly, the one-handed method creates the pocket when it slides between the skin and underlying muscle. All it takes is the animal to jump when first pricked by the needle, the needle deflects, and you've got in your hand that is doing the tenting - I've seen it happen. While working for the same vet, I was giving a blackleg shot to an animal and couldn't seem to penetrate the hide. I resorted to the tenting method and came with a hair of self-injecting myself for black leg when the animal suddenly threw a fit. I've never tented since, nor will I.

 

[somn]

Sometimes helps to pinch a tent of their skin and poking needle in there.

That is a very good way to inject yourself instead of the animal. A lot of the vaccines can cause some very nasty problems when that happens, so you may want to rethink your injection technique.

I'm wondering what would be a better way as this is the method I have used thousands of times. My history has showed it to be the eaisest and safest way I've found. How do you create the pocket under the skin to inject the medicine into. I Pinch and pull inject into the pocket created by pinching and pulling. Same as angie except I call it a pocket she called it a tent. I'm not seeing how this method is a very good way to inject myself.

Somn

Go here and try this.

http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 713#405713

Regards

Bez>

I've never owned a disposable syringe. I'm not the kind of person that will put sick cattle in my basement when it is cold out but I will show some compassion for my livestock stabbing at livestock with a syringe is not something I will do besides that stabbing with a pistol grip syringe will be awkward. I have never in my entire life drove the needle thru both layers of skin and out the opposite side.

I would never try your method as I am not as skilled as you are. I have never seen anyone that can just stab at an animals neck with a needle enter the animal just under the skin without penetrating any muscle ram home the vaccine all one handed. You must have an amazing sense of touch in your hand to be able to hit that small of a sweet spot in between skin and muscle without pulling one away from the other. Your method actually sounds more like IM than sub cutaneous. Are you really sure you are injecting between the skin and muscle or is it going into the muscle. You say you never get lumps doing it this way could that be because you are injecting IM. 20 cc of pen sub cutaneous will make a lump.

 

[somn]

Sometimes helps to pinch a tent of their skin and poking needle in there.

That is a very good way to inject yourself instead of the animal. A lot of the vaccines can cause some very nasty problems when that happens, so you may want to rethink your injection technique.

I'm wondering what would be a better way as this is the method I have used thousands of times. My history has showed it to be the eaisest and safest way I've found. How do you create the pocket under the skin to inject the medicine into. I Pinch and pull inject into the pocket created by pinching and pulling. Same as angie except I call it a pocket she called it a tent. I'm not seeing how this method is a very good way to inject myself.

I was taught the one-handed method by a vet when I worked for him apprx 100 years ago. He had self-injected himself with Bangs and developed Undulant Fever, so he was adamant about not tenting the skin to give Sub-Q injections. When done correctly, the one-handed method creates the pocket when it slides between the skin and underlying muscle. All it takes is the animal to jump when first pricked by the needle, the needle deflects, and you've got in your hand that is doing the tenting - I've seen it happen. While working for the same vet, I was giving a blackleg shot to an animal and couldn't seem to penetrate the hide. I resorted to the tenting method and came with a hair of self-injecting myself for black leg when the animal suddenly threw a fit. I've never tented since, nor will I.

100 years ago was way before my time. You people must have some real tight skinned cattle if you need to inject that close to the hand pulling the skin away. I would love to watch you people implant cattle with a head gate only.

 

[Bez>]

Sometimes helps to pinch a tent of their skin and poking needle in there.

That is a very good way to inject yourself instead of the animal. A lot of the vaccines can cause some very nasty problems when that happens, so you may want to rethink your injection technique.

I'm wondering what would be a better way as this is the method I have used thousands of times. My history has showed it to be the eaisest and safest way I've found. How do you create the pocket under the skin to inject the medicine into. I Pinch and pull inject into the pocket created by pinching and pulling. Same as angie except I call it a pocket she called it a tent. I'm not seeing how this method is a very good way to inject myself.

Somn

Go here and try this.

http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 713#405713

Regards

Bez>

I've never owned a disposable syringe. I'm not the kind of person that will put sick cattle in my basement when it is cold out but I will show some compassion for my livestock stabbing at livestock with a syringe is not something I will do besides that stabbing with a pistol grip syringe will be awkward. I have never in my entire life drove the needle thru both layers of skin and out the opposite side.

I would never try your method as I am not as skilled as you are. I have never seen anyone that can just stab at an animals neck with a needle enter the animal just under the skin without penetrating any muscle ram home the vaccine all one handed. You must have an amazing sense of touch in your hand to be able to hit that small of a sweet spot in between skin and muscle without pulling one away from the other. Your method actually sounds more like IM than sub cutaneous. Are you really sure you are injecting between the skin and muscle or is it going into the muscle. You say you never get lumps doing it this way could that be because you are injecting IM. 20 cc of pen sub cutaneous will make a lump.

Well at least you have an option should you ever choose to try it.

Have a good one.

Bez>

 

[Mongoose]

20 cc of pen sub cutaneous will make a lump.

Yeah I would say so, 20cc is way to much for 1 injection site.

EDIT: I know injecting to much in one spot will eave a lump, but what else will? If you give a shot SubQ and are still the in the Skin Tissue will that leave a lump?