Stand Your Ground

[JMJ Farms]

I suspect it will go to trial. It is difficult to justify self defense when you are holding the man's shirt to keep him from FLEEING. It is beyond the pale to even imagine he will not be charged.

While I sympathize with the store owner, AND I agree theft of one penny or $1 Billion is wrong, AND I think one should be able to defend his/her property and possessions....... AT THIS TIME, our laws don't allow citizens to kill another person for stealing.

I suspect this thief was probably not a Sunday School teacher and this was probably not his first offense in criminal behavior, but he is a human being nonetheless, and his life is over. Permanently. The owner shouldn't have shot him when the video very clearly shows that he was attempting to flee. This was murder/manslaughter (I'm not sure of the exact definitions).

Now, if the thief had attempted to steal the hatchet, and the store owner had picked up a shovel and hit him on top of the head once to stop him, and this single blow actually wound up killing the thief..... then I WOULD SAY there is a little more grey area..... but I THINK, by definition of law, this would be no different than two fatal gunshots. Certainly wouldn't look as bad though.

If someone is stealing your means of survival (garden vegetables, animals, eggs or whatever if you truly need them to sustain life), or they are in your home stealing then I say lay em low without hesitation. If they are stealing from your business, AND NOT POSING A THTEAT TO SOMEONES LIFE, then there's a different set of rules. IT IS JUST AS WRONG!!!! But.... IMO it should still be handled differently.

I'm not sure the law differentiates regardless. Stealing is not a crime punishable by lethal means in the USA. I'm not trying to debate with anyone who feels differently. I'm learning fast that I don't have to agree with everyone else and vice versa. We all are entitled to our opinions and no one can help how they feel. Right or wrong, one feels how one feels. This is only my opinion so it's worth nothing. I despise sorry people who don't contribute positively to society. However, they are still living human beings. Can't just kill vigilante style.....according to the law.

 

[True Grit Farms]

If this man is indicted, his only defense under stand-your-ground is that he perceived a threat. (Lethal force is not acceptable to apply in cases of theft) He has employed an attorney to defend him. The link states that his attorney is putting up a defense that he perceived a threat.

I suspect it will go to trial. It is difficult to justify self defense when you are holding the man's shirt to keep him from FLEEING. It is beyond the pale to even imagine he will not be charged.

So you can't even stop someone from leaving your store that stole something from you? Who's to say the thief wasn't right handed and had the hatchet in his hand? The thief was no doubt armed. The bullet placement will be key in this case, if he was shot anywhere in the chest it was self-defense. In the back the store owner needs a good story. My take is, if you ever shoot someone, use your right to remain silent and get a lawyer.

 

[Son of Butch]

He could easily have shot the guy in the thigh, rather than center mass shoot to kill out of rage not fear.
That said, It's not like the bad guy was stealing a loaf of bread.
A felon stealing a weapon, be it a knife, gun, hatchet or sword is never a good thing.
Shooting him may have prevented a mentally ill man from going on a rampage against innocents.
But his inability to control his rage over the theft will certainly make life for him and his loved ones more difficult.

 

[Bright Raven]

If this man is indicted, his only defense under stand-your-ground is that he perceived a threat. (Lethal force is not acceptable to apply in cases of theft) He has employed an attorney to defend him. The link states that his attorney is putting up a defense that he perceived a threat.

I suspect it will go to trial. It is difficult to justify self defense when you are holding the man's shirt to keep him from FLEEING. It is beyond the pale to even imagine he will not be charged.

So you can't even stop someone from leaving your store that stole something from you? Who's to say the thief wasn't right handed and had the hatchet in his hand? The thief was no doubt armed. The bullet placement will be key in this case, if he was shot anywhere in the chest it was self-defense. In the back the store owner needs a good story. My take is, if you ever shoot someone, use your right to remain silent and get a lawyer.

My only point was that he will be charged based on the information in the link. What the jury decides is TOTAL ABSOLUTE speculation. I have seen juries in action. Served jury duty twice. I learned one thing for certain:

"Truth, justice and the American way"

Is BS!

 

[True Grit Farms]

I suspect it will go to trial. It is difficult to justify self defense when you are holding the man's shirt to keep him from FLEEING. It is beyond the pale to even imagine he will not be charged.

While I sympathize with the store owner, AND I agree theft of one penny or $1 Billion is wrong, AND I think one should be able to defend his/her property and possessions....... AT THIS TIME, our laws don't allow citizens to kill another person for stealing.

I suspect this thief was probably not a Sunday School teacher and this was probably not his first offense in criminal behavior, but he is a human being nonetheless, and his life is over. Permanently. The owner shouldn't have shot him when the video very clearly shows that he was attempting to flee. This was murder/manslaughter (I'm not sure of the exact definitions).

Now, if the thief had attempted to steal the hatchet, and the store owner had picked up a shovel and hit him on top of the head once to stop him, and this single blow actually wound up killing the thief..... then I WOULD SAY there is a little more grey area..... but I THINK, by definition of law, this would be no different than two fatal gunshots. Certainly wouldn't look as bad though.

If someone is stealing your means of survival (garden vegetables, animals, eggs or whatever if you truly need them to sustain life), or they are in your home stealing then I say lay em low without hesitation. If they are stealing from your business, AND NOT POSING A THTEAT TO SOMEONES LIFE, then there's a different set of rules. IT IS JUST AS WRONG!!!! But.... IMO it should still be handled differently.

I'm not sure the law differentiates regardless. Stealing is not a crime punishable by lethal means in the USA. I'm not trying to debate with anyone who feels differently. I'm learning fast that I don't have to agree with everyone else and vice versa. We all are entitled to our opinions and no one can help how they feel. Right or wrong, one feels how one feels. This is only my opinion so it's worth nothing. I despise sorry people who don't contribute positively to society. However, they are still living human beings. Can't just kill vigilante style.....according to the law.

How do you know that the store owner didn't live there? I don't agree, the thief was armed and was a threat.

 

[True Grit Farms]

If this man is indicted, his only defense under stand-your-ground is that he perceived a threat. (Lethal force is not acceptable to apply in cases of theft) He has employed an attorney to defend him. The link states that his attorney is putting up a defense that he perceived a threat.

I suspect it will go to trial. It is difficult to justify self defense when you are holding the man's shirt to keep him from FLEEING. It is beyond the pale to even imagine he will not be charged.

So you can't even stop someone from leaving your store that stole something from you? Who's to say the thief wasn't right handed and had the hatchet in his hand? The thief was no doubt armed. The bullet placement will be key in this case, if he was shot anywhere in the chest it was self-defense. In the back the store owner needs a good story. My take is, if you ever shoot someone, use your right to remain silent and get a lawyer.

My only point was that he will be charged based on the information in the link. What the jury decides is TOTAL ABSOLUTE speculation. I have seen juries in action. Served jury duty twice. I learned one thing for certain:

"Truth, justice and the American way"

Is BS!

Personally I'll be surprised if he's charged.

 

[JMJ Farms]

I suspect it will go to trial. It is difficult to justify self defense when you are holding the man's shirt to keep him from FLEEING. It is beyond the pale to even imagine he will not be charged.

While I sympathize with the store owner, AND I agree theft of one penny or $1 Billion is wrong, AND I think one should be able to defend his/her property and possessions....... AT THIS TIME, our laws don't allow citizens to kill another person for stealing.

I suspect this thief was probably not a Sunday School teacher and this was probably not his first offense in criminal behavior, but he is a human being nonetheless, and his life is over. Permanently. The owner shouldn't have shot him when the video very clearly shows that he was attempting to flee. This was murder/manslaughter (I'm not sure of the exact definitions).

Now, if the thief had attempted to steal the hatchet, and the store owner had picked up a shovel and hit him on top of the head once to stop him, and this single blow actually wound up killing the thief..... then I WOULD SAY there is a little more grey area..... but I THINK, by definition of law, this would be no different than two fatal gunshots. Certainly wouldn't look as bad though.

If someone is stealing your means of survival (garden vegetables, animals, eggs or whatever if you truly need them to sustain life), or they are in your home stealing then I say lay em low without hesitation. If they are stealing from your business, AND NOT POSING A THTEAT TO SOMEONES LIFE, then there's a different set of rules. IT IS JUST AS WRONG!!!! But.... IMO it should still be handled differently.

I'm not sure the law differentiates regardless. Stealing is not a crime punishable by lethal means in the USA. I'm not trying to debate with anyone who feels differently. I'm learning fast that I don't have to agree with everyone else and vice versa. We all are entitled to our opinions and no one can help how they feel. Right or wrong, one feels how one feels. This is only my opinion so it's worth nothing. I despise sorry people who don't contribute positively to society. However, they are still living human beings. Can't just kill vigilante style.....according to the law.

How do you know that the store owner didn't live there? I don't agree, the thief was armed and was a threat.

I assumed bc he was a county commissioner that he probably didn't live at his business. I could be very wrong. Assuming is not good.

If he was truly a threat to the store owner, why did the store owner pursue him? I generally try to put distance between myself and a threat. Not pursue it.

We will see what unfolds, but that video is damning. Gonna be hard to explain why he shot him when the owner was holding the thief's shirt outside the store while the thief was trying to get on down the street.

 

[Bestoutwest]

If I remember correctly you own your own business. Out of curiosity, how many folks have you shot who didn't pay you? I think if we all went around shooting folks the world would be a pretty miserable place to live. I'm glad most folks don't share the same ideology as you do.

Also, you assume that this individual didn't want to work. I've seen other posts where you assume the same thing. You know that old saying about assumptions, right? I've learned that I'm a happier person assuming less about folks, and allowing them to show me who and what they're about.

Like Raven says "Make America Happy Again."

The people I have had issues paying with didn't come into my office and steal so let's compare apples to apples. If the man wanted to work he would have walked in asking for a job or to work for the items he wanted stealing is a lady way to get what you want. So did this guy show you he's an asset to society? I work too GD hard for my $ to have the forgive and forget attitude you have and I will not hold hands with thieves and sing by the camp fire. I think you say stuff to spark a fight but it won't be with me. Maybe since you love everyone we could send criminal elements to your home to stay with you. :tiphat:

So you only advocate the killing of criminals IF they steal from your home or place of business? Isn't theft of services still stealing? Haven't you had employees still tools DIRECTLY from your truck? And no, I don't harbor, celebrate, or condone criminal behavior. This guy should have been apprehended and the law should have dealt with it. It's a scary day in America when Avergae Joe can play cop, judge AND executioner over something so small as $15.

 

[Bright Raven]

I assumed bc he was a county commissioner that he probably didn't live at his business. I could be very wrong. Assuming is not good.

If he was truly a threat to the store owner, why did the store owner pursue him? I generally try to put distance between myself and a threat. Not pursue it.

We will see what unfolds, but that video is damning. Gonna be hard to explain why he shot him when he was holding his shirt outside the store trying to get on down the street.

The picture I get from that link is almost hilarious if it were not so tragic.

I would like to see what kind of skit Saturday Nite Live could make from these facts.

Imagine: a poor skinny homeless black man trying to get out of a store after shoplifting a $15 hatchet that he needed to break up a pallet so he could have a bed for the night. He is trying to flee and get back to the garbage can where he hangs out so he can drink the dregs from beer, wine and whiskey bottles when the store owner grabs him and trys to drag him back in so he can kill him. Not being able to drag him back in, the owner says to heII with it, he is just a homeless black man. Bang bang in the chest.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Hispanic...

 

[Caustic Burno]

He could easily have shot the guy in the thigh, rather than center mass shoot to kill out of rage not fear.
That said, It's not like the bad guy was stealing a loaf of bread.
A felon stealing a weapon, be it a knife, gun, hatchet or sword is never a good thing.
Shooting him may have prevented a mentally ill man from going on a rampage against innocents.
But his inability to control his rage over the theft will certainly make life for him and his loved ones more difficult.

You will get filed on quicker for that in Texas. Shooting to wound doesn't pass the test you were in imminent danger.

 

[True Grit Farms]

While I sympathize with the store owner, AND I agree theft of one penny or $1 Billion is wrong, AND I think one should be able to defend his/her property and possessions....... AT THIS TIME, our laws don't allow citizens to kill another person for stealing.

I suspect this thief was probably not a Sunday School teacher and this was probably not his first offense in criminal behavior, but he is a human being nonetheless, and his life is over. Permanently. The owner shouldn't have shot him when the video very clearly shows that he was attempting to flee. This was murder/manslaughter (I'm not sure of the exact definitions).

Now, if the thief had attempted to steal the hatchet, and the store owner had picked up a shovel and hit him on top of the head once to stop him, and this single blow actually wound up killing the thief..... then I WOULD SAY there is a little more grey area..... but I THINK, by definition of law, this would be no different than two fatal gunshots. Certainly wouldn't look as bad though.

If someone is stealing your means of survival (garden vegetables, animals, eggs or whatever if you truly need them to sustain life), or they are in your home stealing then I say lay em low without hesitation. If they are stealing from your business, AND NOT POSING A THTEAT TO SOMEONES LIFE, then there's a different set of rules. IT IS JUST AS WRONG!!!! But.... IMO it should still be handled differently.

I'm not sure the law differentiates regardless. Stealing is not a crime punishable by lethal means in the USA. I'm not trying to debate with anyone who feels differently. I'm learning fast that I don't have to agree with everyone else and vice versa. We all are entitled to our opinions and no one can help how they feel. Right or wrong, one feels how one feels. This is only my opinion so it's worth nothing. I despise sorry people who don't contribute positively to society. However, they are still living human beings. Can't just kill vigilante style.....according to the law.

How do you know that the store owner didn't live there? I don't agree, the thief was armed and was a threat.

I assumed bc he was a county commissioner that he probably didn't live at his business. I could be very wrong. Assuming is not good.

If he was truly a threat to the store owner, why did the store owner pursue him? I generally try to put distance between myself and a threat. Not pursue it.

We will see what unfolds, but that video is damning. Gonna be hard to explain why he shot him when the owner was holding the thief's shirt outside the store while the thief was trying to get on down the street.

I'm sure not going to retreat from someone that stole my stuff, I'd be like a bulldog on a piglet. After reading all this it's no wonder that we have so much stealing going on in this country. If a person gets lucky enough to catch a thief stealing their stuff the least you need to do is crack his skull with a fungo bat. I've never killed anyone for stealing but I've messed them up really bad.

 

[kenny thomas]

If I remember correctly you own your own business. Out of curiosity, how many folks have you shot who didn't pay you? I think if we all went around shooting folks the world would be a pretty miserable place to live. I'm glad most folks don't share the same ideology as you do.

Also, you assume that this individual didn't want to work. I've seen other posts where you assume the same thing. You know that old saying about assumptions, right? I've learned that I'm a happier person assuming less about folks, and allowing them to show me who and what they're about.

Like Raven says "Make America Happy Again."

The people I have had issues paying with didn't come into my office and steal so let's compare apples to apples. If the man wanted to work he would have walked in asking for a job or to work for the items he wanted stealing is a lady way to get what you want. So did this guy show you he's an asset to society? I work too GD hard for my $ to have the forgive and forget attitude you have and I will not hold hands with thieves and sing by the camp fire. I think you say stuff to spark a fight but it won't be with me. Maybe since you love everyone we could send criminal elements to your home to stay with you. :tiphat:

Sky, congratulations. You have turned in to a conservative. :banana:

 

[skyhightree1]

If I remember correctly you own your own business. Out of curiosity, how many folks have you shot who didn't pay you? I think if we all went around shooting folks the world would be a pretty miserable place to live. I'm glad most folks don't share the same ideology as you do.

Also, you assume that this individual didn't want to work. I've seen other posts where you assume the same thing. You know that old saying about assumptions, right? I've learned that I'm a happier person assuming less about folks, and allowing them to show me who and what they're about.

Like Raven says "Make America Happy Again."

The people I have had issues paying with didn't come into my office and steal so let's compare apples to apples. If the man wanted to work he would have walked in asking for a job or to work for the items he wanted stealing is a lady way to get what you want. So did this guy show you he's an asset to society? I work too GD hard for my $ to have the forgive and forget attitude you have and I will not hold hands with thieves and sing by the camp fire. I think you say stuff to spark a fight but it won't be with me. Maybe since you love everyone we could send criminal elements to your home to stay with you. :tiphat:

Sky, congratulations. You have turned in to a conservative. :banana:

Funny as days go by and I continually hear people take up for worthless thieves that add no value to society it pmo

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

Many years ago, a banker told my parents to always leave the keys in the car. His reasoning was it's better to have the car stolen than to have 'them' come into your home. Seems like that's not such good advice today. Meth is such a bad deal around here, the idiots are actually taking gates off corrals and selling for scrap $$. I carry all the time.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Many years ago, a banker told my parents to always leave the keys in the car. His reasoning was it's better to have the car stolen than to have 'them' come into your home. Seems like that's not such good advice today. Meth is such a bad deal around here, the idiots are actually taking gates off corrals and selling for scrap $$. I carry all the time.

It's is epidemic here.
I know of no one that doesn't carry.
Most are just trying to steal for a fix,there are those that are mean meth heads like drunks. Our problem is my state has a revolving door on the penitentiary for repeat offenders.
I have actually heard some say it's the cost of doing business.
I told the DA about one of our three time offenders the other day . He is going to kill someone or someone is going to have to shoot him and it's going to be the DA's fault. He should have been put away as a habitual last time.
It's was actually so bad we impeached the DA and appointed one to deal with the issues.

 

[bball]

There was a historically famous person who once said something to the extent of {if a man takes your cloak from you, do not withhold your tunic either.}

I can't think of any legal precedent in which killing a man is justified exclusively for thievery; hence, the "i feared fer muh life" statement. Mr. Dunn is no fool.

Ethically, Mr. Dunn is the store owner and clearly believes in open carry at his place of business. No ethics breech there I suspect.

Morally, Mr. Dunn obviously believed shooting the man was the right decision, in that moment. I wonder if that will change in his mind as the adrenaline has worn off.

Someone previously asked if there IS a monetary value that is worth killing over? A certain book says naw. Make the thief replace what he stole a certain number of times over (from the first half of said book) or offer to give him more(from the second half of said book).
All those Sundays are paying off.

 

[Caustic Burno]

How bad it had gotten here.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.12news ... -587254455

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

Wow. Sounds like your DA has a (drug?) problem herself. A person doesn't obtain that much education, acquire a position like that, then screw it all away. Big problem somewhere.

 

[greybeard]

If this had happened in Texas and at night, there would be no question.the shooter would most likely be protected by "castle law".
Texas Penal Code makes a very big distinction between night time and daytime crimes in regards to deadly force. Does Florida?
In Txas, at night deadly force may be used to prevent crimes on your or another's property. Crimes listed are as below. (Texas does recognize that your place of business and your vehicle qualify as your "castle". )
A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41 ; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Joe Horn, in Texas--I believe 2008. Broad daylight, his neighbor's house being burglarized..he kills 2 of them as they went across his neighbor's yard...not indicted by grand jury:
https://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5278638&page=1