Stand Life and Pasture Renovation?

[AllForage]

In my thin rocky hillside soils "zone building" (= pulling a shank ripper very deep) is just not practical in any way shape or form regardless of how much hp and time you have available. I just started with the Aerway recently but so far I am impressed. It pokes holes and fractures soil about 8" deep and while it does loosen some rocks, mostly it just walks over them.

I am also very reluctant to ever destroy sod and start over but like to interseed into the existing stand with a no till drill. jmho.

Mow, fertilize, use the Aerway set at an aggressive angle, drag and no till drill a clover/pasture mix seems to work well into existing sod.

Jim

You are absolutely right that zone building will not work in hilly SW WI farmland. I have friends and get rams in Richland Center every year. Not a flat spot on farm and very erodable. I would strive to maintain a sod on such a farm. But, in relatively flat farmland when looking for good production a fair amount of alfalfa is necessary here in upper midwest. Clover is great when you are not the one producing hay. I believe you say that you buy all your hay. Most long time graziers plow up sod bound pastures because of loss of productivity unless you need early spring sacrifice paddocks which I save. Frost-seeding in sod pastures is not very successful unless a lot of surface disturbance is done.

My understanding of how artificial N fertilizer works is that it burns up OM insoild to release additional N as well. Kind of goes against building OM. Although I will admit if you are above 5% OM you have some to give up. Most soils in US are probably below 3% or worse unfortunately.

Back to building OM. Most of my good gains have come from adding sheep. Those little hooves are perfect for punching their little fertilizer pellets into soil. Also clean up around cow pats and any "weed" the cows ignore.

 

[1wlimo]

I have struggled to pull a single shank subsoiler with 60 hp yet been able to pull a 7 shank with 145 hp. Just depends on the condition of the soil.

A V shaped subsoiler takes less hp than a straight line one as the leading shanks save work on those behind.

If you are going to chiselplow out the compaction to the same depht it will take a whole lot more hp. This is because you ae lifting all of the soil not just moving and cracking it.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Sure is different for different areas. We wouldn't think about tearing up the sod for pasture ground. It would take several years before it would hold up to cattle. We have round-up some areas & no-till drilled it. We rotational graze (I don't consider it intensive since I shoot for 3-5 days per paddock) and our fields get better each year. Occasionally, the cattle punch the ever loving out of a paddock if it's a small area & we get non stop rain (like they did a couple days ago). But, the field will just come right back.
this is truly grazing country. I am very fortunate.

 

[plumber_greg]

I was thinking the same thing yesterday, Jeanne. I can't imagine what I would have if I ran a subsoiler or disk and ripped my pastures, nothing I'm thinking. Is the clay content of the soil to the top of the ground, even in black dirt?
It sounds like what we call gumbo, usually found on some bottomground. What we have in the hills is a layer, ranging from 2' to 2", of black loam or silty loam, then what they call a IVb clay layer that water will not pass through. The water sits in this layer and actually stains the soil. To bring that layer to the top would make a mess of things. gs

 

[1wlimo]

Plumber_greg, the idea of a subsoiler used correctly is to just breakup the hard pan, not to mix soil. You should be able to graze subsoiled pasture directly following subsoiling. Normally you would leave it a few weeks to let the pasture recover.

Whith you IVB clay layer for example you would let the water move though this layer, and then let the roots grow into the now areated clay. This should give you a better pasture, however not knowing your area this may not be so.

The soil staining is not good, as this is signs of no oxygen and plants do not like that. The clay holds a lot of nutrients in its stucture as well as water. It is there fore good if you can increase drainage, air flow, and allow plant roots to grow down into it. I fully agree that generally to bring the clay up to the surface is a bad idea.

The process of bringing clay up form the subsoil or even carting it in used to be carried out on sandy soils to make them more loam like, and to increase their fertility. They also used to take sand and mix it into clay soils for the same reason. I would notthink that now this would be economically feasible.

 

[Brute 23]

With the subsoiler and renovator I am talking about it cuts a line a couple inches wide right thru the ground. If you do it at the right times when it is wet there is pretty minimal damage. It looksl like you cut slices in your pasture.

I have seen two shank subsoilers pulled with a Ford 5000 (on the low side for my taste). The HK renovator is 8-10 shanks and pulls fine behind the NH 90hp and JD 2755. Not sure the actual per shank hp.

 

[plumber_greg]

Plumber_greg, the idea of a subsoiler used correctly is to just breakup the hard pan, not to mix soil. You should be able to graze subsoiled pasture directly following subsoiling. Normally you would leave it a few weeks to let the pasture recover.

Whith you IVB clay layer for example you would let the water move though this layer, and then let the roots grow into the now areated clay. This should give you a better pasture, however not knowing your area this may not be so.

The soil staining is not good, as this is signs of no oxygen and plants do not like that. The clay holds a lot of nutrients in its stucture as well as water. It is there fore good if you can increase drainage, air flow, and allow plant roots to grow down into it. I fully agree that generally to bring the clay up to the surface is a bad idea.

The process of bringing clay up form the subsoil or even carting it in used to be carried out on sandy soils to make them more loam like, and to increase their fertility. They also used to take sand and mix it into clay soils for the same reason. I would notthink that now this would be economically feasible.

The trouble with trying to go through the layer of IVb soil here is, it is 100' or so deep! Not everywhere, but in places. You're right the stained soil, they call it mottled, is from lack of oxygen. Water just simply sits there, to work it wet with a subsoiler would make groves in the ground that would just stay open till freezing and thawing would close them, till then water would run down them and make ditches. Not only does it stay wet, but in a prolonged drought it gets concrete hard if it dries out. Imagine a backhoe able to only make grooves in the ground with the teeth.
If the farmers try to no-till plant when too wet you can walk along the furrows and still see the seed a month later. We plow in a type of sewer line 6" deep and if we do it wet, it stays open.
Areas of the world are really different, thanks for the feedback. I'm a learnin' gs

 

[Stocker Steve]

"Good points - - but the issue on clay soil with marginal drainage, is that in a wet year you will never ever have the right conditions for grazing So is this land only good for a one cutting hay system?

Seems like there are two really different grazing approaches:
1) Intensive management with sub soilers and drain tile and/or renovation...
2) Lax management with blue grass or reed canary or fescue sod..."

No sub soiling around here and I only know one bachelor farmer who has tiled. The high level of rocks compared to the value of farm land discourages this much management. I think a pasture renovator would work on improved pastures where the rocks have been picked for 90 years, and I will get a quote on the H&K style.

I have some virgin leased pasture that is mostly blue grass. Not the highest production but it really holds up to cattle.

I seeded about 80% of the deeded ground I bought to a meadow/tall fescue mix and the rest to a reed canary mix. It should have been mostly reed canary. With the heavy soil, and the wet years recently, the fescue just does not fill in and legumes dround out in the swales. I am not sure if we are too far north and/or the fescue is too improved, but the stands here are not impressive after 3 to 5 years.

I am really interested in the tillage radish approach on high ground. I will run some numbers to see if I can justify a manure application and a summer plowing (if it is dry enough by then) for an August planting, to prepare a seed bed for next year. I don't look forward to all the inputs but I can see the sward productivity dropping off even though I have really increased soil fertility.

This area seems like it wants to grow quack grass, timothy, and reed canary - - so reed canary is the best sod grass option. Some people complain about how stemmy it gets and how it does not grow in the fall, but it works for me with 4 or more grazings per year.

 

[MasseyFerg]

research has showed that aerating doesn't pay- not sure about subsoiling. I thought hard pan was caused by plowing deep every year but you all are talking hay or pasture not crops.

If you have soil with any clay content and it gets dry and the ground cracks up in the summer then aeration is a waste of money as nature does it for you every summer

 

[dun]

research has showed that aerating doesn't pay- not sure about subsoiling. I thought hard pan was caused by plowing deep every year but you all are talking hay or pasture not crops.

If you have soil with any clay content and it gets dry and the ground cracks up in the summer then aeration is a waste of money as nature does it for you every summer

Hard pan is a natural occuring part of the soil. Plow pan is what is caused by reptitive plowing to the same depth.

 

[Stocker Steve]

On a lax farm that has been plowed shallow for a long time, plowing deep can result in some amazing yields.

 

[1wlimo]

Plummer_greg have you heard of "mole plowing"? A method of moulding drains into the wet clay subsoil on leavel ground to aid in the draining of water and to reduce the water table. Maybe this could help on your sort of soil?

This is not a low hp fix, and it requires skill etc. I have a mate who uses a D6 on around 1200 acres a year. The drains can last 5 to 15 years. Not ideal to use a wheel tractor as the traction required induceses bounce enevn with full ballest on board. This leaves the drains rippled and then they fail leaving a bigger problem.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Plummer_greg have you heard of "mole plowing"? A method of moulding drains into the wet clay subsoil on leavel ground to aid in the draining of water and to reduce the water table. Maybe this could help on your sort of soil?

This is not a low hp fix, and it requires skill etc. I have a mate who uses a D6 on around 1200 acres a year. The drains can last 5 to 15 years. Not ideal to use a wheel tractor as the traction required induceses bounce enevn with full ballest on board. This leaves the drains rippled and then they fail leaving a bigger problem.

How would you compare this to installing drain tile?

 

[Kingfisher]

Plummer_greg have you heard of "mole plowing"? A method of moulding drains into the wet clay subsoil on leavel ground to aid in the draining of water and to reduce the water table. Maybe this could help on your sort of soil?

This is not a low hp fix, and it requires skill etc. I have a mate who uses a D6 on around 1200 acres a year. The drains can last 5 to 15 years. Not ideal to use a wheel tractor as the traction required induceses bounce enevn with full ballest on board. This leaves the drains rippled and then they fail leaving a bigger problem.

How would you compare this to installing drain tile?

I think that is what he is talking about. I got to thinking more about this type of " irrigation" or drainage last year. I have a friend with a farm near Brownwood Texas. Around the corner they can grow water melons. I hear at his place when the red dirt gets wet it is like concrete and kills the melons............I would think drain tile on this kind of dirt ( some of it has some slope) would be good for whatever you might want to grow. Just thinking....

 

[1wlimo]

A "mole drain" and a "tile drain" are different. Most comonly the both are used together. By running the mole drains one way ineresecting with the gravel over the tiles running at an angle to open ditches the number of tile drain required is dramatically reduced.

Imagine the cost if you were to "tile drain" with gravel back fill every six to ten feet! with "mole drains" this can be reduced to a tile drain every 40 foot or so.

 

[plumber_greg]

I understand 1w, however, here it is perched water that is the problem. Water in all soils moves horzontally and vertically, before going down to the next layer of different soil. Think of watering your garden, ever notice how you can water with a hose or sprinkler and your garden looks pretty good, then a 1/2 of rain comes and the difference is amazing? Movement of water in the layers of soil is why. We actually put 12" of black dirt on top of 6" of sand for some sewers. The sand will stay dry, the grass of top will look great, as the water will not pass to the sand until the top layer of dirt is saturated. Sounds crazy, but it's true.
With perched water the water cannot move, or moves very slowly. A mole drain will drain the area just around the drain, but the water cannot move laterly to the drain. Has been proven that we cannot lower a perched water table with a curtian drain or tile drain. Wish I could invent a way, I'd be rich. gs

 

[1wlimo]

OK gs I get the idea

 

[1982vett]

Have you seen results from combining a pasture renovator pass and a no till drill pass?

AS mention about the clay based soils cracking when they dry out...the slice the coulter makes when no tilling makes a nice strait 1/2" wide crack when the ground dries out and everthing you have planted dies....

 

[Stocker Steve]

With perched water the water cannot move, or moves very slowly. A mole drain will drain the area just around the drain, but the water cannot move laterly to the drain. Has been proven that we cannot lower a perched water table with a curtian drain or tile drain. Wish I could invent a way, I'd be rich. gs

What prevents the water from moving laterally?

 

[1wlimo]

Soil is a chemical melting pot.

If you think of models sand is like glass balls in a jar. The water goes in easy and then tips out easy.

Peat or high organic soils are like a sponge, they soak up water and some can be sqeased back out.

Clay is tiny lattice like particales that have tiny spaces between them. The lattice if you like can jail water and neutrients.

So I would assume that the black soils that give plummer_greg so much fun are high in organic matter and clay. So they hold a lot of water, and then there is chemistry in the soil due to ph, or the chemical building blocks of the soil that increase the already high effect of the clay in holding onto the water. The soil acts like a big water magnate if you will.