Stand Life and Pasture Renovation?

[Stocker Steve]

I have much longer stand life on one farm compared to the other. Better drainage and running stockers rather than cows makes a big difference. I know some folks never renovate, but since I am building soil fertility, and I get quite a bit of compaction with pairs, I do not think this is always the best approach. I am tempted to renovate one pasture per year - - bale grazing it the previous winter, picking rocks , growing one year of grain using the N credit, and then seeding it back to a grass/clover mix.

Have you been able to pencil out a justification for a rotation like this?

 

[1wlimo]

I have disced up pasture here, and reseeded alfalfa under barley. It has not ben cheap looking a $250 to $300 an acre. Breaking ground with heavy discs just drinks fuel. This includes fert, and the barley crop contributes about 40 to 50% of the costs.

By discing once in the fall then bale grazing you could reduce the tillage costs as the cows will break up the sod.

Given my choice I would subsoil in the fall depending on where the compaction is and soil conditions, and then mouldboard plough in the spring. If you get a good grain crop this would pay for the cultivation and undersowing would work here too.

You would need a good rollover moulboard plough, and travel at a good speed to break up the soil. A disc press drill would leave the field fairly good in the correct conditions.

The problem here is the machines are not readily avaliable

 

[1wlimo]

If you dig a hole in your soil and know where the compaction is, and do soil sample to find out the nutrient status of your soil then you can make informed decisions on cultivation choice and fertiliser requiremnts.

There is evidance to say that the N credit from ploughing in a sward can reduce the N required. I have farmed organically and ploughed in clover as the total N for veg crops. These required a higher level of N and this can work well.

If your costs can be kept low then then the grain crop should pay for most of costs of restablishing your new pasture.

It may be possiable just to work your existing pasture with a straight shank subsoiler and seed behind this, as in the "Keyline" system.

I have not tried this method or seen it applied directly, however I hav seen very simular machines seeding canola into grain stubles in a one pass system very sucsessfuly.

Zero till does not give you much if any N credit.

 

[novatech]

No-til cover crops can aid in breaking up the soil. Annual rye roots can reach a depth of 54' if used repeatably aiding in porosity. Tuberous forage such as radish, mustard and turnips break up the top layers.
http://www.tillageradish.com/cover-crop ... 7AodeHGHNg
http://www.mccc.msu.edu/meetings/2010/2 ... obison.pdf

 

[Brute 23]

We run a subsoiler or renovator pretty religously. Some hay fields get it no less than every other year. Never tried to put a pencil to it but just eyeing it you can see the difference.

As an example I ran the subsoiler on a decent chunk at one place during Jan and Feb (the last rain before the 1.5" we had a week or so ago). That area held good grass far longer than where it wasn't done. Then when we got this last 1.5" it responded far better than what had not been done. If we would have kept raining into March and April I would have gotten alot more done.

I would test it side by side. Not all ground responds the same.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Have you seen or built a pasture sub soiler that will work with an 80 hp tractor?

 

[SRBeef]

With an 80 HP tractor it will take you forever to "subsoil". I would suggest not plowing but mowing then spread whatever fertilizer and lime is suggested by your soil test, then using a tool known as an Aerway run at its steepest angle setting, then drag, then drill your pasture mix seed maybe with a clover as part of it to produce some N. The Aerway will work on a lower hp tractor. It pokes holes 8" deep (with weights on it) and fractures the soil without turning it over. jmho.

Jim

 

[Brute 23]

They don't look that hard to build. Frame out the 3pt part in 3 or 4" sq tubing. The shank is just a heavy duty 6 or 8" flat bar.

I am using one like this but a Ford brand behind a 90hp NH or JD 2755. Both pull it with out a problem. Once the shanks are in and you are adjusted right it will suck the rear of the tractor down so wheel spin isn't bad. Also I put a drag behind it and hook in high by the top link. That helps it pull down also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQhC6XX0lX4

 

[IL cow man]

I would recommend buying polywire to subdivide your pastures. Get books written by Gregg Judy or Cody Holmes. These guys are on the extreme for being too green for me, but the technique works using high intensity grazing. You can do this for about $500-$1500 depending on the size of fence charger you might have to buy. Another guru for for rotational Grazing is Jim Gerrish. i am just starting the High intensity grazing and am on a large learning curve. There is time involved in doing this but you can set up a weeks worth of grazing cells pretty easy.

 

[Stocker Steve]

They don't look that hard to build. Frame out the 3pt part in 3 or 4" sq tubing. The shank is just a heavy duty 6 or 8" flat bar.

I am using one like this but a Ford brand behind a 90hp NH or JD 2755. Both pull it with out a problem.


Thanks for the link. I assumed the shanks were closer together. What gives when you hit a rock?

 

[AllForage]

I have not seen any trials with aerways in upper midwest that proved their worth. Have seen "zone building" that made a difference. Basically putting 18 inch slices into soil about 12-18 inches apart. Not exactly sure on width spacing. Large tractor needed to do this. If you have clay like I discussed on other thread, nothing beats renovation. Grazing countries like argentina and to some extent new zealand see it as a necessary evil. Gives you a chance to grow some grain or put crops through that can be grazed. I have seeded turnips and then winter triticale w/crimson clover as an experiment. The latter was not so good. Going to try corn green grazing this year, but too wet and cold. My fields when newly seeded will grow 3 foot alfalfa and after 7 years there is none left. I like alfalfa based pastures due to it is the only thing green some summers plus puts those N credits you are after. With stockers you should be able to justify teh cost if you own equipment it is just seed and fuel. Some annual crops obviously can outproduce in tonnage perrenial pasture, the key is finding what is best to your soil/climate.

Subdividing will not alleviate compaction and Judy's missouri climate has a longer growing season and more biological activity time plus dung beetles. Not sure also on his soil type, probably more sandy loam I would guess. I could be totally wrong.

 

[Stocker Steve]

If you have steep hills or thin soil or no rain than renovation is not very practical and has more risk.
I agree it is a necessary evil for many heavy soils, but then you find the odd grazer who does fine w/o it.
I think another way to ask the question is how do you reach the high OM, fertility, and drainage levels needed to reduce the need for renovation.

 

[SRBeef]

In my thin rocky hillside soils "zone building" (= pulling a shank ripper very deep) is just not practical in any way shape or form regardless of how much hp and time you have available. I just started with the Aerway recently but so far I am impressed. It pokes holes and fractures soil about 8" deep and while it does loosen some rocks, mostly it just walks over them.

I am also very reluctant to ever destroy sod and start over but like to interseed into the existing stand with a no till drill. jmho.

Mow, fertilize, use the Aerway set at an aggressive angle, drag and no till drill a clover/pasture mix seems to work well into existing sod.

Jim

 

[1wlimo]

Stocker Steve the idea is to not get the soil into a bad state. Not sure how to do that,other than with high clay soil not graze it when it is wet.

I think that you really need to know where the damage is before you can treat it. It it is jsut the top few inches that are compacted then there is no need to work to 10 or 18 inchs etc.

I have been looking at the research and lots of it does not mention looking at the condition of the soil before it was treated. I there for do not see how they could come to a good conclusion one way or the other.

It is possiable to seed clover by feeding it to cows and letting them spread it for you.

Not really sure how you can increase the organic matter of a clay soil unless you add lots of manure, or crop it with legumes, canolla, and the use of green manures.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Stocker Steve the idea is to not get the soil into a bad state. Not sure how to do that,other than with high clay soil not graze it when it is wet.

I think that you really need to know where the damage is before you can treat it. It it is just the top few inches that are compacted then there is no need to work to 10 or 18 inchs etc.

I have been looking at the research and lots of it does not mention looking at the condition of the soil before it was treated. I there for do not see how they could come to a good conclusion one way or the other.quote]

Good points - - but the issue on clay soil with marginal drainage, is that in a wet year you will never ever have the right conditions for grazing So is this land only good for a one cutting hay system?

Seems like there are two really different grazing approaches:
1) Intensive management with sub soilers and drain tile and/or renovation...
2) Lax management with blue grass or reed canary or fescue sod...

 

[Brute 23]

They don't look that hard to build. Frame out the 3pt part in 3 or 4" sq tubing. The shank is just a heavy duty 6 or 8" flat bar.

I am using one like this but a Ford brand behind a 90hp NH or JD 2755. Both pull it with out a problem.

Thanks for the link. I assumed the shanks were closer together. What gives when you hit a rock?

The flat bars over lap and are bolted together. Certain pins are made to sheer so it will swing behind you if you hit a stump, rock, pipeline, ect.

There are lots of different styles with different spacings. You can slide the shanks side to side with u-bolts on the square tubing. If you go to a pasture renovator there are more shanks but you don't get as deep as the subsoiler.

http://www.hayking.com/renovator.htm

 

[Stocker Steve]

Have you seen results from combining a pasture renovator pass and a no till drill pass?

 

[Brute 23]

No. Only thing I have seen added is liquid fert to the revovator.

 

[1wlimo]

"Good points - - but the issue on clay soil with marginal drainage, is that in a wet year you will never ever have the right conditions for grazing So is this land only good for a one cutting hay system?

Seems like there are two really different grazing approaches:
1) Intensive management with sub soilers and drain tile and/or renovation...
2) Lax management with blue grass or reed canary or fescue sod..."

I grew up on tile drained clay, option 1) is the way to go if you can get the figures to stack up. It is not as easy to farm a high clay soil than a sandy one, but it can be much more productive. Just takes more skill to get it correct. and when it goes wrong you just have to go out and fix the problem.

One year it was too wet to subsoil so I had to chiselplow down to 15 inch to break up some compacted dead water logged soil, only 5 acres damaged by harvesting in a wet fall. Was expensive but it lead to being able to grew a crop.

 

[Stocker Steve]

How much hp per shank are we talking for sub soiler vs. pasture renovator vs. chisel plow?