South Devon

[BA]

Anyone use or experienced this breed?

 

[Australian Cattleman]

Yes love them.
We have been using them for fifteen years now and love them. We breed pure cattle as well as cross them with our pure Brahman. We also have a commercial herd of Herefords and Black Baldy and cross them over these. We have also crossed them with Gelbvieh and Charolais with good results. About to try them with Simmental,I'm sure we won't be disappointed.
The good things about them;
They have the most beautiful temperament both pure and when crossed.
They have plenty of milk.
They add weight to whatever crossed with.
They rear their calves with not a lot of thought for themselves.
They seem to respond after a dry spell more quickly than most other British breeds.
The first cross mothers are proving to be excellent. SD/Hereford have a white face and are usually solid brown. We cross them to either SD or Hereford which makes them straight brown or with Hereford type markings.
Crossing SD seems to soften some of the Euro type breeds.
The negatives that we have come across here in Australia is their confusion with red Devons (which they are not related to, though cross very well with them).
Their yellowish colour sometimes can be a deterent.Though we have darker coloured ones as well as lighter ones and some blacks as well.
Their birthweight sometimes can be a problem,so sensible use of them needs be considered. We use principly Grove Brutus or Hannibal bloodline cattle which are excellent calving bulls.
We never rely on EPDs or Breedplan as it is too risky.
We have had the odd case of mastitis when there has been an abundance of feed ( which isn't very often)
We have had the occasional foot problem (long toes) but have traced this back to a particular bloodline and got rid of them.
They are a later maturing breed,so to keep steers to feed,crossbred ones are the way to go.
We generally sell our pure bulls into Santa Gertrudis,Hereford,Angus and Shorthorn herds.
Our South Brahvon bulls are sold to mainly Bos Indicus type cattle breeders,wanting that touch of British but not too much.
Hope this might help you out.
Colin & Helen http://www.southdevonbeefcattle.com.au (Chevalley SDs)

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Yes love them.
We have been using them for fifteen years now and love them. We breed pure cattle as well as cross them with our pure Brahman. We also have a commercial herd of Herefords and Black Baldy and cross them over these. We have also crossed them with Gelbvieh and Charolais with good results. About to try them with Simmental,I'm sure we won't be disappointed.
The good things about them;
They have the most beautiful temperament both pure and when crossed.
They have plenty of milk.
They add weight to whatever crossed with.
They rear their calves with not a lot of thought for themselves.
They seem to respond after a dry spell more quickly than most other British breeds.
The first cross mothers are proving to be excellent. SD/Hereford have a white face and are usually solid brown. We cross them to either SD or Hereford which makes them straight brown or with Hereford type markings.
Crossing SD seems to soften some of the Euro type breeds.
The negatives that we have come across here in Australia is their confusion with red Devons (which they are not related to, though cross very well with them).
Their yellowish colour sometimes can be a deterent.Though we have darker coloured ones as well as lighter ones and some blacks as well.
Their birthweight sometimes can be a problem,so sensible use of them needs be considered. We use principly Grove Brutus or Hannibal bloodline cattle which are excellent calving bulls.
We never rely on EPDs or Breedplan as it is too risky.
We have had the odd case of mastitis when there has been an abundance of feed ( which isn't very often)
We have had the occasional foot problem (long toes) but have traced this back to a particular bloodline and got rid of them.
They are a later maturing breed,so to keep steers to feed,crossbred ones are the way to go.
We generally sell our pure bulls into Santa Gertrudis,Hereford,Angus and Shorthorn herds.
Our South Brahvon bulls are sold to mainly Bos Indicus type cattle breeders,wanting that touch of British but not too much.
Hope this might help you out.
Colin & Helen http://www.southdevonbeefcattle.com.au (Chevalley SDs)

Please explain to me why: 'We never rely on EPD's"! That seems to me to be tantamount to saying, "We never rely on Genotype or production records or Birth weights, or calving ease or weaning weights or mothering characteristics or marbling percentages or Scrotal Measurements or depth of body or - - -or- - -???? For what purposes are you raising these cattle if not to improve the bottom line with cross-breeding? Is it a guessing game? Are you using Phenotype? - - -or- - -'Maybe-type '? I'm eager for information! Perhaps I have been wrong for the last 60 years. Have I wasted my time and money and midnight oil? --Gee- -I hope not.

 

[ga. prime]

Aus. Catman: Great promotion of the South Devons. I know jacksh!! about South Devons. I would like to hear(read) your response to DOC HARRIS'S post though.

 

[Australian Cattleman]

Never been very interested in Breedplan. Have bought bulls with great figures and been very disappointed with the results. When we select a bull we have a good look at him,forget about the figures until we have assessed him structurely,then we look at his birthweight and ema and we then check out his pedigree.
We are very suspicious of many of the figures supplied. We never knock any one that uses these as a guide.
Only today we were looking up a breed website and found some animals that we had sold a long while back. Funnily they had a comprehensive list of figures. We are at a loss as to where they "found them" We weigh all our stud calves at birth,then occasionally at weaning and maybe the 'show' ones at times during their preparation.
The only figures the sold animals would have had were birthweights.
Here in Australia a lot of breeders are looking more at EMA and of course birthweights and becoming more common is gene star ratings.
Went to a South Devon (Breedplan only cattle) sale last year to buy a bull which we did and also purchased a couple of cows. The top sale price was for two cows that obviously were purchased on their figures. They were possibly the two most unappealing cows on offer,they were slab sided and had calves at foot just like them and were doing a very bad job on their calves. The two cows we purchased had figures which we looked up later on down the track,they were the poorest performers on paper but are doing a tremendous job on their calves and looking after themselves as well. I confess that in purchasing our bull I did look at the birthweight as guide,only because it was the first time for a long time that we were going away from a trouble free bloodline. We have no calves by him yet but have only joined him to cows for safety. Our previouse SD sires could be put with heifers with little or no problem.
A comment about EPDs or Breedplan and any knockers of Angus sure generate debate on this board.
Thanks for taking the time to comment on my post.
Colin

 

[docgraybull]

Anyone use or experienced this breed?

Agree with everything that Aussie said in his first reply/post on this thread, about South Devons. My father bought some registered South Devons in about 1978-1980 and kept registering them until about 1986. He kept using registered South Devon bulls into the mid 90's, but didn't register the offspring. Since then he has been using LBW (black) Angus bulls. Great cross!
The South devons are very docile, and I think that they were referred to as the "Gentle Giants". The cows are big, but are easy keepers. The cows are very good mothers and give a lot of milk. Had the occasional cow with bag breakdown who would develop a "cokebottle" teat. They make a great end product (steak) also! We did have to pull/assist more than we should have though. But the calves were hardy. Crossing the LBW Angus bulls in has essentially eliminated calving problems. Crossing with the Black Angus has produced solid reds and blacks, occasionally with a reddish tinge.
I have used two bulls for herdsires that were varying degrees of South Devon/Angus mix (from Dad's herd), and have been happy with the product. Hardy low birth weight, growthy calves.

 

[BA]

We raise some registered stock, and also have Blk. & Red Angus. The cross is very good. I just wanted to see if anyone has heard of them. What was your dad's name, I might recognize the name. Thanks!

BA

 

[Bez]

Hey Aussie Cattleman:

Like the way you talk. I wrote this about our cattle one day when I was asked about epd's and frame score and hip height -

As to hip height - no clue - why is that important?

I just run them in the chute for vaccination and never touch them otherwise. I figure these animals get handled for less than 5 minutes total in any year.

Frame score? I do not know how to score a cow. I never figured it to be important. So you'll have to take your own guess.

When you guys all start talking about that stuff you may have noticed I do not say much - that's because I am truly not interested. They look good, they look healthy, or they do not. If there is symmetry and conformation and balance - well, that's how I grade 'em. The overall look.

I too have been bitten by the numbers game players.

The numbers are a good guide, but overall appearance, fit within the herd, conformation, temperment, health, physical balance - can all be seen by walking in amongst the animals - and physically watching the vet during his assessment of animal health PRIOR to cutting the cheque - that usually makes a far larger impression upon me.

Have a good one,

Bez

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Hey Aussie Cattleman:

Like the way you talk. I wrote this about our cattle one day when I was asked about epd's and frame score and hip height -

As to hip height - no clue - why is that important?

I just run them in the chute for vaccination and never touch them otherwise. I figure these animals get handled for less than 5 minutes total in any year.

Frame score? I do not know how to score a cow. I never figured it to be important. So you'll have to take your own guess.

When you guys all start talking about that stuff you may have noticed I do not say much - that's because I am truly not interested. They look good, they look healthy, or they do not. If there is symmetry and conformation and balance - well, that's how I grade 'em. The overall look.

I too have been bitten by the numbers game players.

The numbers are a good guide, but overall appearance, fit within the herd, conformation, temperment, health, physical balance - can all be seen by walking in amongst the animals - and physically watching the vet during his assessment of animal health PRIOR to cutting the cheque - that usually makes a far larger impression upon me.

Have a good one,

Bez

:shock: AMAZING!

 

[Bez]

Glad you liked my comments Doc - hope your comment was not a hidden insult - really not kosher if it was - lots of us do not get too tied up on epd's - information is only as accurate as the provider and we too have been provided with bad info in the past - from breeders and orgs that could / should be considered top notch.

I still like to walk the animals and figure my eye is pretty good.

Looks like Aussie Cattleman thinks about the same as I do - so simply noticed and mentioned.

There are quite a few on this board who agree - they may or may not chime in - it has been chewed to death more than once - all you have to do is a short search.

One of the more knowledgeable folks on this board is also a HUGE supporter of epd's - right ollie? 8)

Many of us have run very successful operations without the use of numbers. Does not mean we do not respect those who use them - just means we do not always place faith in them that the numbers game folks do.

Have a good one,

Bez

 

[Bez]

In keeping with the original topic - saw my first South Devons up front and real today - nice animals - quiet and well put together. Neighbour is planning to cross them with Red Angus.

I figure they would work.

Bez

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Glad you liked my comments Doc - hope your comment was not a hidden insult - really not kosher if it was - lots of us do not get too tied up on epd's - information is only as accurate as the provider and we too have been provided with bad info in the past - from breeders and orgs that could / should be considered top notch.

I still like to walk the animals and figure my eye is pretty good.

Looks like Aussie Cattleman thinks about the same as I do - so simply noticed and mentioned.

There are quite a few on this board who agree - they may or may not chime in - it has been chewed to death more than once - all you have to do is a short search.

One of the more knowledgeable folks on this board is also a HUGE supporter of epd's - right ollie? 8)

Many of us have run very successful operations without the use of numbers. Does not mean we do not respect those who use them - just means we do not always place faith in them that the numbers game folks do.

Have a good one,

Bez

Hey, Bez - No insult intended! This discussion rings familiar to discussions such as: Ford or Chevy?? (and the one's involved in the controversy ignore the fact that there are Dodges, GMC's, Toyota's, etc.) Choices of Religion, styles of clothing, furniture, length of hair (and color) choice of whom to marry (Thank God or else EVERYONE would want my wife!) Political Party choices - - - - and on and on and on to infinity. It has been that way since Old Adam and Eve. I'm glad that we have the Freedom to do as we wish, whatever the consequences! One of my "Set in Concrete" mottos is "The EYE of the Master Breeds his Cattle". ;-)

 

[dun]

All frame score does is provide a relative measurement of mature size. On limited a forage base the larger the cow the fewer that can be run productively. It allows Joe Schwartz in CA to compare the relative height with Sam Scratch in MN.
That said, it's really a pretty marginal method of comparing cattle. Ours tend to be short and very wide, the neighbors Angus are taller and don;t have the width. His have a larger FS but they weigh about the same as ours. Mature weight based on body condition is a more equal comparison. But that doesn;t address the easy doing cattle vs those that are harder doing cattle. I'm sure there are myriad studys that show that a cow that weighs 1600 eats x% more feed than one that weighs 1100, but just as there are people that can gain weight and be healthy on less feed, I'm sure it's the same with cattle. But I'm sure no scientist. Our heifers are selected from those that come off the cow looking good and don;t change significantly while on a light grain ration during the weaning process. They're turned out with the cow herd for the winter and are expected to flourish with no supplement. Our cows run probably about a FS 4.5 to 6.5 One of the heiviest who also raises one of the top calves each year is the smallest cow and weighs 1400 lbs. Based on the FS table she shouldn;t weigh near that much, but she's wider across the back and through the hooks as several cows that are in the 1600 range.
One other concern about FS/height is how intimidated my stubby wife (stretching she won;t make 5 foot) gets when she's srrounded by cows that are taller then her. They can;t hurt her any worse, but her brain says those bigger cows are scarier.
Numbers are just another tool, doesn;t matter if it's pelvic, height, EPDs, or number of legs. When you find cattle with a particular set of data that consistantly work well for you, it's hard to start looking at a change for the sake of change. But the physical part of the cow is still the single most important part. No matter how great all of the numbers are, if her feet are poor, legs are too extreme in either direction, narrow girthed, etc., she isn;t going to work in some environments.


dun

 

[Australian Cattleman]

Bez we have crossed them with both black and red Angus with excellent results. You get hybrid vigour,you tone any Angus temperament problems down also you maintain the black colour unless you have split gene cattle. The South Devon's brown colouring is very dominant, usually you get blacks out of blacks but if they have a hint of the red Angus gene thay are likely to be brown then.
Here in Australia a composite has been developed called "Australis" using South Devon and Angus. I suspect that there are a number of Angus breeders here that already use SDs giving the credit for higher weight cattle to ? Angus.
Several years ago the SD society was asked to annex the development of Australis,tapping into the then enormous Angus gene pool. The backward thinking society decided not to accept the proposal. Hence the sluggish spread of South Devons here in Australia
Love our SDs
Colin http://www.southdevonbeefcattle.com.au

 

[frenchie]

. But the physical part of the cow is still the single most important part. No matter how great all of the numbers are, if her feet are poor, legs are too extreme in either direction, narrow girthed, etc., she isn;t going to work in some environments.


dun

Well said Dun..