Son and Momma

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cowspider

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My bull got in the pasture with his momma and a couple of his sisters.
Am I going to have Two headed freaks ?? what is the chances the calves will be OK ?? I don't want to breed the heifers if I get any. Should they be OK to breed if I sell them to someone else?? I don't want to screw over somebody> :oops: :cboy:
 
cowspider":1r8v6klt said:
My bull got in the pasture with his momma and a couple of his sisters.
Am I going to have Two headed freaks ?? what is the chances the calves will be OK ?? I don't want to breed the heifers if I get any. Should they be OK to breed if I sell them to someone else?? I don't want to screw over somebody> :oops: :cboy:

Calm down everthing is ok your calfs will be ok just dont retain, bull to dam is not bad to the sisters aint to hot though. Just sell all the calves as feeders.
 
Caustic Burno":2qkx5bfa said:
cowspider":2qkx5bfa said:
My bull got in the pasture with his momma and a couple of his sisters.
Am I going to have Two headed freaks ?? what is the chances the calves will be OK ?? I don't want to breed the heifers if I get any. Should they be OK to breed if I sell them to someone else?? I don't want to screw over somebody> :oops: :cboy:

Calm down everthing is ok your calfs will be ok just dont retain, bull to dam is not bad to the sisters aint to hot though. Just sell all the calves as feeders.

For once some good level headed advise from Mr. Rude and Crude.

Send them as feeders like Burno said. And build better fence. ;-)
 
Son to dam you have a different sire on the son's side so the gene pool is spread out a little. Brother to sister (if they are full brother/sister) have the same parents and the family tree is beginning to look like a telephone pole. Sort of like people some parts of Lewis County. I wont mention which parts in case you live in one those neighborhoods.
Dave
 
we just have regular cows. limi/char cross..and a few herfords..nothing registered, we have often bred bulls to thier daughters, but we dont go any farther than that....and we have yet to have a two headed....3 tailed freak .... :lol: we sell the 'grand daughter"calves or bring in new blood.....the brothers get cut so they cant breed. i know a person that thought it was awful to breed a son to his mother....but didn;t think twice about breeding a daughter to her father....i asked what the difference was, and they thought it sounded awful.....i just laughed and shook my head.....they even thought it was kinda funny when they thought about it. i am sure that some will not think it is a good idea to do this....but we have not had any problems.
 
It's just a matter of what you prefer to do with the calves from this breeding but they will be fine. They won't be retarded or deformed. If they are heifers they will be fine to keep for breeding or to sell to someone else for breeding as long as they are bred to a different bull (no relatives). These calves won't look any different than other calves. Many pure bred breeders routinely line breed and/or inbreed to improve their cattle. I have an excellent heifer calf that was born in January as a result of a planned mating between mother and son. This heifer will be out crossed to a different blood line at breeding age.
 
Caustic Burno":5qr8gfwh said:
cowspider":5qr8gfwh said:
My bull got in the pasture with his momma and a couple of his sisters.
Am I going to have Two headed freaks ?? what is the chances the calves will be OK ?? I don't want to breed the heifers if I get any. Should they be OK to breed if I sell them to someone else?? I don't want to screw over somebody> :oops: :cboy:

Calm down everthing is ok your calfs will be ok just dont retain, bull to dam is not bad to the sisters aint to hot though. Just sell all the calves as feeders.
Sorry CB - you missed this one. The half brother x half sister is fine - called linebreeding. The son to the dam is inbreeding and over 50% of one animal in the pedigree. I would suggest you read The Basis of Linebreeding by Jim Lents ( [email protected]) The son to dam will just bring out any genetic flaws quicker. Line breeding is fine - if you know how to cull - as it will magnify the best and the worst. Angus Breeders - look at EXT - half sib mating. If you like the heifers - keep them- they will be your great cows.
 
My experience is different.

Once had father breed his daughter - resulted in deformed front leg & could not stand, put calf down.

Father of bull & father of dam the same (ie half brother sister) - resulted in calf without anus - put calf down. The bull & cow were both a result of AI breeding, while the calf w/o a hole was naturally conceived from the half brother & sister.

I mainly AI so I do not have much bull breeding experience, but what little I have had says inbreeding don't work on this farm & in my herd of cattle.
 
Any time you in breed you will magnify the good or bad traits. I'm sure anything can happen but it usually doesn't. I have some half sibs that I plan to breed together to ensure that I fix certain desirable traits that they have. I'm betting that these calves will be ok and that I will be able to use them in my herd, I could be wrong. I just know that in our breed there are several very prominent bulls that were the products of half or full sibling or parent and offspring matings that have contributed alot to the breed. I only plan this type of mating with my cattle if I feel that they have the traits that I want to perpetuate.
 
I was taught that linebreeding is what you call it when it turns out good and inbreeding is what you call it when it doesn't. I know that is a joke to some and an insult to others. I think the main key is CULL and CULL HARD like has already been said in different ways. You will get pure genious or pure idiot...important that you look close to distinguish the difference. Sometimes the 2 can be confused.
 
Another option would be, depending on when this event took place you can give the females a shot and abort the embryos.
 
Farminlund":1f6mjs2j said:
My experience is different.

Once had father breed his daughter - resulted in deformed front leg & could not stand, put calf down.

Father of bull & father of dam the same (ie half brother sister) - resulted in calf without anus - put calf down. The bull & cow were both a result of AI breeding, while the calf w/o a hole was naturally conceived from the half brother & sister.

I mainly AI so I do not have much bull breeding experience, but what little I have had says inbreeding don't work on this farm & in my herd of cattle.

It may well be that they were already stacked with the same genetics too many times in the pedigree, and there were too many bad traits in those genetics. Two of the highest averaging Hereford sales are Cooper and Holden of Montana, and they do nothing but line-breed Line One Herefords. This year I think one had a top seller in the $15,000 range, and the other over $20,000. The averages were around $5,000 for sixty or seventy some head of bulls. Some years they will even have a $50,000 bull.

I personally have used a line-bred Hazlett/Turner Ranch bloodline Hereford bull with excellent results. I used him primarily on outcross cows, and that is what the greatest benefit of a line bred sire is. They make great outcross calves.
 
Larry Sansom":3ghno3vp said:
Caustic Burno":3ghno3vp said:
cowspider":3ghno3vp said:
My bull got in the pasture with his momma and a couple of his sisters.
Am I going to have Two headed freaks ?? what is the chances the calves will be OK ?? I don't want to breed the heifers if I get any. Should they be OK to breed if I sell them to someone else?? I don't want to screw over somebody> :oops: :cboy:

Calm down everthing is ok your calfs will be ok just dont retain, bull to dam is not bad to the sisters aint to hot though. Just sell all the calves as feeders.
Sorry CB - you missed this one. The half brother x half sister is fine - called linebreeding. The son to the dam is inbreeding and over 50% of one animal in the pedigree. I would suggest you read The Basis of Linebreeding by Jim Lents ( [email protected]) The son to dam will just bring out any genetic flaws quicker. Line breeding is fine - if you know how to cull - as it will magnify the best and the worst. Angus Breeders - look at EXT - half sib mating. If you like the heifers - keep them- they will be your great cows.

You should read the original post he said sister he made no mention of 1/2 until a few post later.
Breeders of purebred livestock have introduced a term, linebreeding, to cover the milder forms of inbreeding. Exactly what the difference is between linebreeding and inbreeding tends to be defined differently for each species and often for each breed within the species. On this definition, inbreeding at its most restrictive applies to what would be considered unquestioned incest in human beings - parent to offspring or a mating between full siblings. Uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, half sibling matings, and first cousin matings are called inbreeding by some people and linebreeding by others.
 
Although it doesn;t bear directly on beef cattle, I was talking with a good dairyman, one of the few in the area, and he said he doesn;t want any one animal to contribute more then 30%. He feels you start getting to many odd calves (not as good as either parent) if it gets above that. Of course he's a rookie like me and has only been breeding Holsteins since around 1960.
But, the local vet tried his genetic experiment and kept breeding daughters of EXT back to EXT. The 4th generation of that was bred to 036 and had a huge dead heifer a week early and prolapsed and died. It's pretty tough when the vet is out saving other peoples cows and loses one of his own.

dun
 
Dun,

If the good Doctor went 4 generations deep daughter back to sire it would have looked like this:

1st Inbreeding=75% EXT
2nd Inbreeding=87.5% EXT
3rd Inbreeding=93.75% EXT
4th Inbreeding=96.875% EXT

Now it was his "experiment" so to each his own, but clearly the good Doctor has no real world understanding on how to inbreed livestock! With that said, the fact that he had a healthy 93.75% daughter of EXT to breed back to stands as a testament that when using sound genetic stock to begin with, that you can get away with some quick and intense inbreeding with no problems whatsoever. I submit also that with another daughter inbred to the same degree, or perhaps even that same one again he could have gotten a good healthy 96.875% calf, but I believe he went about breeding heavily on EXT in the wrong manner to establish a good solid program.

An infusion of some other EXT based blood would have kept his options broader, while keeping the percentage of EXT blood still rather high. You don't necessarily want to raise the percentage of a particular individual in your breeding program as abruptly as this Doctor did, but you want to raise your Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient to high levels, while culling out all of the undesireable specimen. SELECTIVITY is the name of the game when dealing in family bred stock. When you get the WIC% high, then you have a good chance of a calf coming out just like one of the parents rather than the great great grandsire. I belive judicious use of inbreeding in the beef breeds would give even more predictability to offspring and that family bred sires or dams would prove to be better producers hands down than other bulls or cows of the breed. It takes some knowledge as to how to do it properly though; most never do, and and by the time the few do figure it out................................. they are close to dead!

DOC HARRIS pointed out on the cloning thread one of the keys to understanding breeding, and that was his work with something as simple seeming as Chinchillas, and he also had valuable experience with Akita dogs.

Back to the original post of being able to breed daughter to sire, son to mother, half brother to half sister........and all of those F1 inbreedings...... shouldn't be a problem whatsoever although expect some reduction in size and an increase in consistency.
 
Sorry CB - you missed this one. The half brother x half sister is fine - called linebreeding. The son to the dam is inbreeding and over 50% of one animal in the pedigree. I would suggest you read The Basis of Linebreeding by Jim Lents ( [email protected]) The son to dam will just bring out any genetic flaws quicker. Line breeding is fine - if you know how to cull - as it will magnify the best and the worst. Angus Breeders - look at EXT - half sib mating. If you like the heifers - keep them- they will be your great cows.

So how does this affect registration? Just curious if "linebreeding" is approved by any registering associations. Lets for example say 1/2 brother is bred to 1/2 sister and (not that it matters) both are from the same AI bull. Just curious.
 

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