something to ponder
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Calman
Well-known member
It all boils down to,when that t-bone is wrapped and in the meat counter, the buyer don't care if a hobby rancher or a big time rancher raised it.
Cal
Cal
Hippie Rancher":3308ewh2 said:
I think you're wrong on both counts, and that the "contempt" - your word, not mine - comes from the hobbyist generally not having a clue about how to handle/care for the animals he/she has acquired, a basic refusal to accept responsibility for their animals, as well as their care, and the fact that the animals pay the price because the owner is too stupid/lazy/arrogant to ask questions, research, find a vet and talk to him/her, and figure out how to properly care for the animals he/she has acquired. I've never met a "real" - again, you're word, not mine - rancher that wasn't more than willing to share his/her wisdom, answer questions, and provide direction/guidance. The biggest problem with a lot of hobbyists is that they think they know it all, and won't/don't listen.
novatech
Well-known member
I do not believe that any newbie is any less responsible than some that have been in the business all their lives. Many of the newbie's dive in and learn all they can about their new found hobby. That is why you see them on the boards. I also believe there are many professional cattlemen that think they know it all and are not willing to see what is new in the industry. They are going to do it the way daddy did it no matter what research proves.
Responsibility and safety are more individual personal traits and have nothing to do with being a professional or hobbyist.
The equipment one has may be the result of ones financial ability. When I was a kid no one could afford a squeeze. All the calves were worked on the ground. The cows were worked in a chute with nose tongs. I am not a kid anymore and to continue with cattle I must have better facilities and equipment. Plus now I can afford it. If I cannot I build it. If I could not, I would hire young bucks to do it, on the ground or where ever.
When I got back into cattle I thought I new a lot due to the fact I was raised in the industry. When I came to the boards I found I still have a lot to learn. This is in part due to the fact that newbie's/hobbyist ask questions and I can read the answers given by those that know. Some of the things I thought I new I found I did not know at all.
There is a back grounding operation in my are that runs sever thousand head through their pasture at any given time. Every morning a truck and trailer loaded with horses and cowboys leaves the headquarters to make the rounds. They ride through the herds looking for any problems with the cattle. When they find one they will rope the animal, head and heal, treat it and let it loose.
There is another operation down the road that only has about 25 head. When he has a problem he gets a bucket and calls all the cattle to the pen, runs them through the chute and treats the problem animal in a squeeze.
So does either have any claim as to who is more professional?
Responsibility and safety are more individual personal traits and have nothing to do with being a professional or hobbyist.
The equipment one has may be the result of ones financial ability. When I was a kid no one could afford a squeeze. All the calves were worked on the ground. The cows were worked in a chute with nose tongs. I am not a kid anymore and to continue with cattle I must have better facilities and equipment. Plus now I can afford it. If I cannot I build it. If I could not, I would hire young bucks to do it, on the ground or where ever.
When I got back into cattle I thought I new a lot due to the fact I was raised in the industry. When I came to the boards I found I still have a lot to learn. This is in part due to the fact that newbie's/hobbyist ask questions and I can read the answers given by those that know. Some of the things I thought I new I found I did not know at all.
There is a back grounding operation in my are that runs sever thousand head through their pasture at any given time. Every morning a truck and trailer loaded with horses and cowboys leaves the headquarters to make the rounds. They ride through the herds looking for any problems with the cattle. When they find one they will rope the animal, head and heal, treat it and let it loose.
There is another operation down the road that only has about 25 head. When he has a problem he gets a bucket and calls all the cattle to the pen, runs them through the chute and treats the problem animal in a squeeze.
So does either have any claim as to who is more professional?
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
novatech":cl74b9bt said:
I agree with most all of your post as I do this one as well. It's not the number it's the attitude that gets under the skin. Had a guy move in the area from Houston owned 4 or 5 McDonalds he was going to be a cowboy.
Went and bought half dozen Brimmer crosses at the salebarn. He was smart enough to get a cowman to buy them for him and they were decent cattle, but he hadn't built the facalities. After a few months he was tired of playing the role and couldn't catch the cows so he just moved off and left them.
Have another guy in the area that also owns dang near everything from Dickinson to Pasadena Tx and hires everything done, he will tell you right quick its his hobby. He runs a good operation and has a lot of cattle I fed the other day for him he runs around 150 head.
skyline
Well-known member
Thanks for all the responses. Here's my point. If someone is arrogant, know it all, unwilling to learn, irresponsible, or any of the other negative traits mentioned above, then call them that, if you want to.
On the other hand, I bet there are a lot of folks reading these posts who don't earn their living raising cattle, but who have a strong desire to learn and who have great responsibility when it comes to their cattle. They're starting from scratch and doing the best that they can. They may not have the best working facilities, but they care enough to improve as they can afford it. And they care about their safety and the safety of their cattle. They come on this board because they want to learn about cattle and associate with other cattle people that talk their language. They'd really like to make more money than they spend on their cattle, and they may be trying to figure that out. They may not have been born into it, but they're trying to get there. Heck they may even have a goal to be a "professional" some day. So, let's not group them into this "hobbyist" category that seems to be so blooming disdainful. OK?
On the other hand, I bet there are a lot of folks reading these posts who don't earn their living raising cattle, but who have a strong desire to learn and who have great responsibility when it comes to their cattle. They're starting from scratch and doing the best that they can. They may not have the best working facilities, but they care enough to improve as they can afford it. And they care about their safety and the safety of their cattle. They come on this board because they want to learn about cattle and associate with other cattle people that talk their language. They'd really like to make more money than they spend on their cattle, and they may be trying to figure that out. They may not have been born into it, but they're trying to get there. Heck they may even have a goal to be a "professional" some day. So, let's not group them into this "hobbyist" category that seems to be so blooming disdainful. OK?
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
rockridgecattle":3uql4ctz said:
I look forward to your next soap box moment.
A lady near me bought a horse for her kids and didn't even have the first fence post in the ground. She had nothing to hold it except for a lead rope.
Calman
Well-known member
Actually I have never heard the word Hobby Rancher or Real Rancher prior to this cattle board.For me it's always been small Operation or big operation.People around my area don't seem to make much of an issue out of either.I really think the word Hobby has been used more on this board than anywhere else.
I think no mater if you are big in the operation or small,the end product is the same.
We are all raising beef.I guess I don't qualify for either since I don't own one head of cattle but still take care of around 65 head. It sure makes for a enjoyable retirement though.
Cal
I think no mater if you are big in the operation or small,the end product is the same.
We are all raising beef.I guess I don't qualify for either since I don't own one head of cattle but still take care of around 65 head. It sure makes for a enjoyable retirement though.
Cal
TexasBred
Well-known member
RR...can I borrow your shower??? ;-) I need more moments like that myself. I guess I probably would fall into the category of "hobbiest" as I have a full time job but also run cattle. Been around them all my life in both small and "huge" operations. Learned a lot of respect for both the cattleman and the cattle but especially the cattle. We'd like to make some money from them every year but don't necessarily have to. We have what I would call average working facilities but at least try to always put the cattle first. We try to raise them to be gentle, hardly even look up when we walk thru them (unless we have a bag or a bucket), respect their needs and treat them pretty much like we would want to be treated. No hotshots, no beatings with a cedar post and no yelling. We have a chute and headgate but never use the headgate unless we're eartagging. The rest can be done simply by putting a pipe behind then while allowing the to stand comfortably in the chute. My wife helps but is always outside the working area unless breeding a cow. As for timing.....a lot of things have to be done NOW whether you like it or not, but when it comes to doing the things we want to do such as penning and worming, palpating, etc. we always do it very early or very late. Never in the heat of the day. A small thing but the cattle seem to be much more relaxed when it's cooler and I darn sure am.
Is it a hobby...99% on here would probably say yes. But we try operate it as if we have a million dollars invested, a thousand cows depending on us, as if the loss of one cow or calf will ruin the bottom line, and the neighbor (who is a member of PETA) is watching over the fence. Whether you have 5,10,20 or a 1000 head you should always run your cattle operation as if it's your only source of income.
Is it a hobby...99% on here would probably say yes. But we try operate it as if we have a million dollars invested, a thousand cows depending on us, as if the loss of one cow or calf will ruin the bottom line, and the neighbor (who is a member of PETA) is watching over the fence. Whether you have 5,10,20 or a 1000 head you should always run your cattle operation as if it's your only source of income.
dcara
Well-known member
I don't think I'll ever understand this preoccupation with some folks wanting to label people; and then waste a lot of time trying to come up with a bunch of rules and exceptions that define the label they use. I assure you that variety is endless and there will always be a version that is similar but different and hence doesn't fit in the box that you made and labeled. All I can think is that it be nice not to have anything more pressing than trying to figure out what label to stick on someone. Why in the world would it even matter? If you want to label someone that doesn't have the type of facilities you like then why not just call them the " not like my facilities" type of person; or, the "doesn't manage cows like me" type of person; or, ........ whatever. Whether they do it as a hobby or not will only matter to the IRS. Who as we all know have their own set of rules on the hobby label.
Sorry for the rant but I had a couple of minutes left to waste during lunch.
Sorry for the rant but I had a couple of minutes left to waste during lunch.
dieselbeef
Well-known member
if i could only get the tax man to go along with this....
Ryder
Well-known member
In summer in the south, I think it can be a very big thing.TexasBred":3med7vqm said:
dyates
Well-known member
dcara":1y0lgk4a said:
Amen. Preach it, brother. :clap:
A hobby farmer makes their money at a job and wishes they could have cattle. A real rancher makes his living with cattle and wishes he had a steady job to make decent money. :lol: :lol: :lol:
The IRS has a very big section to handle "hobby farmers" (although they term it "venture not entered for profit" or something like that because they said the word hobby farmer is offensive to some people). There are certain criteria that the auditors look for such as profit motive, did you seek and heed professional advice, record keeping, did you do cost analysis, do you make adjustments to improve profits (there might be a few more). Basically if you earn an outside income and cant show a real profit in 3 out of five years for cattle or 3 out of seven years for horses it is deemed that you entered the venture without a profit motive (as a hobby). If you meet the criteria you cant claim any losses on the operation (but they gladly take a portion when you show a profit).
If someone gets their income from another source and raises a few because they like it, does not make them a hobby farmer in my book. If they do not have proper fences and the calves get hit on a road, if they feed costly feeds or buy lavish items for the animal, if they treat the animals as pets, if they believe that the cattle are not to be "harmed" by conventional veternary practices (i.e. antibiotics, castration, etc.), if they could not bring themselves to allow an animal to be slaughtered for food, a sick animal euthanized, or a bad animal culled, they are not profit oriented and therefore a hobbyist.
I only own some calves I backgrounded, a few of which I will keep to fatten and sell to family and friends. Many would call me a hobby farmer because it is a small operation and I make decent cash elswhere but I am growing slowly, learning as I go and accumulating cash. I expect them to make a profit even if it is a slim one. I would own the land anyway so this way I dont have to mow it, I get a tax exemption and I get a few bucks out of it to boot. I do enjoy cattle but I dont go out and pet them or give my kids rides on them. I analyze what to feed them to allow me to make something on them, sell early or keep longer depending on the conditions that year and I go back at the end of the year and see where i could pinch a little more out. Call me a hobby farmer if you will but I hate the term for the very reasons I listed above.
P.S. I dont think it is fair to lump Newbies and Hobby farmers into one group. Everyone has to start somewhere but where they end up is a different matter all together.
The IRS has a very big section to handle "hobby farmers" (although they term it "venture not entered for profit" or something like that because they said the word hobby farmer is offensive to some people). There are certain criteria that the auditors look for such as profit motive, did you seek and heed professional advice, record keeping, did you do cost analysis, do you make adjustments to improve profits (there might be a few more). Basically if you earn an outside income and cant show a real profit in 3 out of five years for cattle or 3 out of seven years for horses it is deemed that you entered the venture without a profit motive (as a hobby). If you meet the criteria you cant claim any losses on the operation (but they gladly take a portion when you show a profit).
If someone gets their income from another source and raises a few because they like it, does not make them a hobby farmer in my book. If they do not have proper fences and the calves get hit on a road, if they feed costly feeds or buy lavish items for the animal, if they treat the animals as pets, if they believe that the cattle are not to be "harmed" by conventional veternary practices (i.e. antibiotics, castration, etc.), if they could not bring themselves to allow an animal to be slaughtered for food, a sick animal euthanized, or a bad animal culled, they are not profit oriented and therefore a hobbyist.
I only own some calves I backgrounded, a few of which I will keep to fatten and sell to family and friends. Many would call me a hobby farmer because it is a small operation and I make decent cash elswhere but I am growing slowly, learning as I go and accumulating cash. I expect them to make a profit even if it is a slim one. I would own the land anyway so this way I dont have to mow it, I get a tax exemption and I get a few bucks out of it to boot. I do enjoy cattle but I dont go out and pet them or give my kids rides on them. I analyze what to feed them to allow me to make something on them, sell early or keep longer depending on the conditions that year and I go back at the end of the year and see where i could pinch a little more out. Call me a hobby farmer if you will but I hate the term for the very reasons I listed above.
P.S. I dont think it is fair to lump Newbies and Hobby farmers into one group. Everyone has to start somewhere but where they end up is a different matter all together.
I luv herfrds
Well-known member
A hobbyist to me is a person who buys animals turns them out in an area behind their house and only do something with the animals on the weekends or holidays and only have the animals to "show off" to their friends that they are "ranchers."
I am not jealous of these hobbiests I only pity the animals that are trying to find something to eat amoung the overgrazed land they are confined upon. Yes I have seen it like that and it makes me mad that they are not taking care of their animals properly.
The animals are there for a status symbol only.
I am not jealous of these hobbiests I only pity the animals that are trying to find something to eat amoung the overgrazed land they are confined upon. Yes I have seen it like that and it makes me mad that they are not taking care of their animals properly.
The animals are there for a status symbol only.
dieselbeef
Well-known member
I luv herfrds":1bs30a1k said:
i hate to bring it to ya but this isnt somethin limited to ''hobby ranchers''. ive seen plenty of ''bigtime ranches'' giulty of the same thing
this has been beaten to death so many times im surprised anyone gives a plop!
gerardplauche
Well-known member
I luv herfrds":hqico2nn said:
I disagree completely. I consider myself a "hobbyist" when it comes to cattle. I try to run it efficent, I keep my animals healthy, sometimes lose calves to inexperience, and I AM guilty of overspending at times. I realize it is not my occupation and probably never will be, just one of my HOBBIES to keep me busy. And my animals are usually in the top 25 percentile at the sale barn; not that that is saying much, but it brings me good prices. And I don't think of a "Rancher" as such a prestigious occupation that I must spend tens of thousands of dollars trying to portray. I grew up with cattle, liked it, so I bought a few.
Why is a "hobby farmer" a threat? I don't get the tension between the two.
SRBeef
Well-known member
As several have said in this thread, we were all "newbies" at some time or another.
The original discussion about facilities is a good one. One common problem we al have these days is that we are often short of help and try to do a lot on our own.
The nature of cattle is, for better or worse, you need certain minimum facilities whether you have one head or one hundred. Water, fences, grass, hay, a tractor to feed etc....don't need to be elaborate but you do need a certain level of each. You can't bring a cow home on a leash as one post mentions a neighbor did with a horse!
There are lifelong farmers I know who have terrible fences and whose cattle are often out on the road, especially when in heat. Time in the business alone does NOT make you a "good" cattleman.
As far as working facilities, this is one thing that most of us who are not good at roping and riding have to have. There are lots of good plans on the internet but is also a lot of moderately priced but sturdy equipment on the market that you can use to build or have built a facility.
Most all businesses require some sort of investment to get started. A mechanic needs to buy tools, a butcher a set of knives, a row crop man needs a tractor and some equipment. And the equipment needs to be apropriate for the task at hand. It may take a few years to repay the initial investment but that is how businesses work.
Water, fences, grass and a sturdy well designed working facility are the tools and necessary investment that are needed to be "IN" the cattle business, almost regardless of your size. Whether the mechanic works on one car or a hundred he needs tools to do the job.
Being properly equipped is smart and safer. Maybe experienced folks can get by with a horse and a rope but I can't. I think there is an appropriate level of investment which lets you take good care of your animals, work safely by yourself most of the time, AND ultimately repay the investment and be profitable.
This is a thought provoking thread. Thank you.
The original discussion about facilities is a good one. One common problem we al have these days is that we are often short of help and try to do a lot on our own.
The nature of cattle is, for better or worse, you need certain minimum facilities whether you have one head or one hundred. Water, fences, grass, hay, a tractor to feed etc....don't need to be elaborate but you do need a certain level of each. You can't bring a cow home on a leash as one post mentions a neighbor did with a horse!
There are lifelong farmers I know who have terrible fences and whose cattle are often out on the road, especially when in heat. Time in the business alone does NOT make you a "good" cattleman.
As far as working facilities, this is one thing that most of us who are not good at roping and riding have to have. There are lots of good plans on the internet but is also a lot of moderately priced but sturdy equipment on the market that you can use to build or have built a facility.
Most all businesses require some sort of investment to get started. A mechanic needs to buy tools, a butcher a set of knives, a row crop man needs a tractor and some equipment. And the equipment needs to be apropriate for the task at hand. It may take a few years to repay the initial investment but that is how businesses work.
Water, fences, grass and a sturdy well designed working facility are the tools and necessary investment that are needed to be "IN" the cattle business, almost regardless of your size. Whether the mechanic works on one car or a hundred he needs tools to do the job.
Being properly equipped is smart and safer. Maybe experienced folks can get by with a horse and a rope but I can't. I think there is an appropriate level of investment which lets you take good care of your animals, work safely by yourself most of the time, AND ultimately repay the investment and be profitable.
This is a thought provoking thread. Thank you.
SRBeef":34299tte said:
Good post.
The most important thing to operate any successfull endevor is knowledge about it. We learn till the day we die and may learn more after that moment than we think.
You can read a book and get some knowledge but it won't always cover every situation. You can seek others that are expierenced. You can take counsel of yourself.
It only comes with time in the job. Which ever job you have chosen.
I luv herfrds
Well-known member
gerard what I was talking about was that miserable 1% that makes all of us look bad.
I was NOT lumping you in that 1%. If you raise and care for your animals well and even better then the guys who have alot of animals then good for you. Be proud of what you do even if it is a hobby for you.
Ok to address the tension. When you meet someone and tell them that you raise cattle you are now representing the entire cattle industry. Now if these people, who do not know anything about raising cattle, come to your place to visit and see well fed cattle and a great place they "see" the cattle industry. Now if theses same people visit another persons place where the cattle have no grass are thin and look terrible then they "see" the cattle industry.
We are all lumped together no matter how we differ in the care of our animals.
Now onto the working facilities.
It is always good to have facilities that work for you and you can afford. Not alot of us can afford a brand new $6000.00 hydraulic sqeeze chute, but can buy a used head catch and make it work on an older squeeze.
I was NOT lumping you in that 1%. If you raise and care for your animals well and even better then the guys who have alot of animals then good for you. Be proud of what you do even if it is a hobby for you.
Ok to address the tension. When you meet someone and tell them that you raise cattle you are now representing the entire cattle industry. Now if these people, who do not know anything about raising cattle, come to your place to visit and see well fed cattle and a great place they "see" the cattle industry. Now if theses same people visit another persons place where the cattle have no grass are thin and look terrible then they "see" the cattle industry.
We are all lumped together no matter how we differ in the care of our animals.
Now onto the working facilities.
It is always good to have facilities that work for you and you can afford. Not alot of us can afford a brand new $6000.00 hydraulic sqeeze chute, but can buy a used head catch and make it work on an older squeeze.
