Solar, diesel or gas for a submersible water pump.

[Texasmark]

Solar is horribly inefficient, costly, bulky, and possibly easily damaged. I have an 11kw (20 HP) standby generator for the house and when I bought it I wanted the most reliable fuel. Surveying the possible options, I selected Propane, hands down. I installed the system back in Feb, 2014 and have had zero problems. Bought a 250 gallon Propane tank, delivered and installed by the local propane co., filling the tank when filling the house tank. Super clean burning fuel, super efficient, reasonably priced fuel, easily replenished, self contained fuel system with zero regards for ambient weather conditions...on and on.

I never thought of propane, I'll look into this to see if it's cheaper than gas or diesel.

Propane is about 91,000 BTU/liquid gallon and cost is usually less than gas, surely less than diesel and carries NO road tax. Propane can sit in your sealed tank for EONs with no degradation, phase separation, algae or this or that. I find that in the corn belt, it is half a dollar or so cheaper than down here since it's more plentiful as it's used for crop drying....as I read and responds well to volume purchases....like filling a 1000 gallon tank.

 

[hurleyjd]

Solar is horribly inefficient, costly, bulky, and possibly easily damaged. I have an 11kw (20 HP) standby generator for the house and when I bought it I wanted the most reliable fuel. Surveying the possible options, I selected Propane, hands down. I installed the system back in Feb, 2014 and have had zero problems. Bought a 250 gallon Propane tank, delivered and installed by the local propane co., filling the tank when filling the house tank. Super clean burning fuel, super efficient, reasonably priced fuel, easily replenished, self contained fuel system with zero regards for ambient weather conditions...on and on.

I never thought of propane, I'll look into this to see if it's cheaper than gas or diesel.

Propane is about 91,000 BTU/liquid gallon and cost is usually less than gas, surely less than diesel and carries NO road tax. Propane can sit in your sealed tank for EONs with no degradation, phase separation, algae or this or that. I find that in the corn belt, it is half a dollar or so cheaper than down here since it's more plentiful as it's used for crop drying....as I read and responds well to volume purchases....like filling a 1000 gallon tank.

Hank Hill would totally agree with you he is the propane guy.

 

[wbvs58]

Must be going to mud drill, a good way to drill but much better with a mud puppy.

Please explain.

Ken

So when you drill down you have the cuttings that need to be brought up. There is a few ways of doing it. You can use air, around 300psi and lots of cfm! With air they pump in foam which suspends the cuttings and the air blows it all up. Good for drilling rock and stable ground. If the ground is soft, mud or sand, the air system doesn't work great as the hole collapses as the foam isn't stable enough to hold the walls of the hole. So with mud as they drill they pump mud down and it brings the cuttings up in the mud. They then get the mud coming up and recirculate it and use the pit to let the mud settle so the cuttings can settle and not be sent back down. When i was helping we had a series of overflow tanks and would pump the mud from last tank back down and a couple of us would be shoveling like mad in the first couple of tanks getting all the cuttings that settle to the bottom out. Can be like shoveling peanut butter at times. The mud has additives (like bentonite) put in it to keep it thick and 'balanced' so it is heavy enough to keep pressure on walls of hole to stop it collapsing. So if you have a mud puppy all the mud/cuttings coming up goes into it and it spits out all the cuttings and pumps the mud back down. Brilliant back saving machines but bloody expensive and use a lot of diesel! When my brother does deep holes can burn through over 1000 litres of diesel. That is a basic description.

Thanks for that Red, very interesting. I never gave it a thought how the dirt came back up. How do you know when you strike the water? I guess the casing goes down when the hole is finished.

Ken

 

[Redgully]

Please explain.

Ken

So when you drill down you have the cuttings that need to be brought up. There is a few ways of doing it. You can use air, around 300psi and lots of cfm! With air they pump in foam which suspends the cuttings and the air blows it all up. Good for drilling rock and stable ground. If the ground is soft, mud or sand, the air system doesn't work great as the hole collapses as the foam isn't stable enough to hold the walls of the hole. So with mud as they drill they pump mud down and it brings the cuttings up in the mud. They then get the mud coming up and recirculate it and use the pit to let the mud settle so the cuttings can settle and not be sent back down. When i was helping we had a series of overflow tanks and would pump the mud from last tank back down and a couple of us would be shoveling like mad in the first couple of tanks getting all the cuttings that settle to the bottom out. Can be like shoveling peanut butter at times. The mud has additives (like bentonite) put in it to keep it thick and 'balanced' so it is heavy enough to keep pressure on walls of hole to stop it collapsing. So if you have a mud puppy all the mud/cuttings coming up goes into it and it spits out all the cuttings and pumps the mud back down. Brilliant back saving machines but bloody expensive and use a lot of diesel! When my brother does deep holes can burn through over 1000 litres of diesel. That is a basic description.

Thanks for that Red, very interesting. I never gave it a thought how the dirt came back up. How do you know when you strike the water? I guess the casing goes down when the hole is finished.

Ken

So with mud drilling they take samples of the cuttings coming up every meter and wash it and that tells you what you're drilling through so if you see iron stained sand you have a pretty good idea there is water. If you get smooth 'washed' pebbles you know you hit really good water. Quartz is a good sign too. When you hit rock or granite you stop mud drilling and put in casing. They then go down with air and slowly clean the hole until only water is coming up and you can start to see what sort of water flows you have. Then you can put a hammer drill bit on and start drilling the rock looking for more water.

When you air drill using just foam it is like in the movies, you get a massive gush of water if you hit a good strike, usually in granite, you hit a crack in the rock and get drenched. That is always exciting to watch. You see the rod drilling hammering away and it is loud and slow, everyone is standing watching and talking, then the hammer stops, the rod drops a foot or two and starts hammering again, you know you got a crack. Everyone stops talking and is watching the hole, could be a dry crack or lots of water. The rig operator is nervous because he may be just about to be drenched.....and woosh up it comes and you can't wipe the smiles of peoples faces. Best part of drilling.

 

[wbvs58]

That sounds very exciting Red, lets hope the original poster gets to experience that excitement.

My neighbour at my block closer into town, Jason had 3 holes drilled on his place a few years ago, all dry, poor bug#er. He works on drilling rigs out in the Cooper basin so knows the pitfalls.

Out at home here another neighbour is getting a bore put down. They should turn up any day now so I think I will go down and have a sticky, sounds really interesting.

Ken

 

[Redgully]

Yeah terribly expensive drilling. I know a guy who spent $30,000 and didn't get a drop of water. If you get a chance to watch a hole drilled is well worth it. There is a lot of cowboys out there so you have to be careful.

 

[greggy]

I asked what it costs, was given a rude shock at the per/ft cost, I cannot see how they justify it when your paying water or not.....

On another note, I went to a drillers home & wow did he have some fancy and old stuff, clearly it is a good money spinner. No doubt they all been flat out down here for last few years at least.....someone just drilled around the corner, a few weeks later about 4 inches of rain came down and filled the dams....

 

[greggy]

Here is a question....

It is also said the water is maybe millions of years old, so how long will this water last if everyone is putting pumps into a small area....

Surely in some places it must seep through fairly quickly, like those with shallow bores near old flood plain areas ?

 

[Redgully]

Here is a question....

It is also said the water is maybe millions of years old, so how long will this water last if everyone is putting pumps into a small area....

Surely in some places it must seep through fairly quickly, like those with shallow bores near old flood plain areas ?

So this is monitered fairly closely. That can check the replenishment of ground water quite accurately these days. In an underground aquifer they have test bores that moniter levels and pressures, if someone unlicensed drills a bore they can tell straight away.

It is expensive but these rigs are hundreds of thousands of dollars. On that sort of investment you want a good return. It is hard work and stressfull. Just the three foot hammer which works at the bottom of the hole are $10,000 each. Each rig will carry three or four for different conditions. They need to be rebuilt regularly and the $1000 bits on the end wear fairly quickly. If a hole collapses or a rod breaks you lose all that. My brother has lost a few. The rigs wear out too so while paying that one off you need to be saving for another. My brother was drilling one day and hit an awkward fracture which caught the hammer and he heard a clunk. $30,000 worth of gearbox repairs that time. You have drilling license, insurance and rig inspection fees on top of all that. There is a reason they charge what they do. A good producing bore will beat a catchment dam every day of the week.

 

[greggy]

I know the costs would not be anything to brush off lightly, but the price does not come down, you could work 24 7 for a grocery store you own and you wont amass what I have seen some build up. And maybe the good times have passed.

I guess, if ignoring skills, would you, if starting from scratch, be a fruit grower or a water driller.....

Anyways, it is what it is, just a high barrier to entry that prevents lot of competition prob, more interested in the water....

So you say it re fills quickly ? So it cannot be the millions of years old that people talk about...

 

[Silver]

If you want to drill cheaper, find an old fella with a cable tool. Slow but cheaper. Many claim a better bore than an air drill, and far less likely to miss the low volume water seams.
Or buy an old cable tool and learn how to run it.

 

[Redgully]

If you want to drill cheaper, find an old fella with a cable tool. Slow but cheaper. Many claim a better bore than an air drill, and far less likely to miss the low volume water seams.
Or buy an old cable tool and learn how to run it.

The old guys around here swore by those cable tool rigs. Problem is we have a lot of rock and then they are useless. My dad used to drill with one and said if you hit mud they would just slosh. He reckons it was the most boring job he ever had. Pardon the pun. Once rotary came in the old cable tool rigs disappeared fast. I've never seen one in person actually working. That old rig sat out the front of the neighbours place for years until a guy stopped and made an offer for it, said it was just what he has been looking for. Recently someone here was after one because he believes drilling granite is bad because it has radiation in it and these rigs just bounce off granite. Takes all types to make the world go around.

 

[greggy]

I prob wont drill, I have a neighbor with a bore and if I get short, no prob to get some & we have a lot of rock and it is a long way down on bores here going by others.....and lots of rock

But if I was going to, I would want to know they actually do replenish themselves, no one would be irrigating here as is grazing etc, not crop country, spending 15 to 20k on something that will ,go dry in a few years is worse than buying water and trucking it....

 

[Redgully]

I prob wont drill, I have a neighbor with a bore and if I get short, no prob to get some & we have a lot of rock and it is a long way down on bores here going by others.....and lots of rock

But if I was going to, I would want to know they actually do replenish themselves, no one would be irrigating here as is grazing etc, not crop country, spending 15 to 20k on something that will ,go dry in a few years is worse than buying water and trucking it....

They certainly can dry up, especially if shallow. I've never had one go dry but the production slow down on four of them. Do you know how deep people around you went? Here in general about 100ft but have a few over 300ft. Drilling in rock is usually same rate per meter. I always like drilling in rock, get good water. White quartz in river sand is the best though, pure water and lots of it. Drilling is only half the cost, electricity, pump, pipes and tanks is the other half.

 

[wbvs58]

I run my house from a bore. It is only down about 20 m according to the drill log. The people I bought the place from had it put down just before they sold. It is only low yielding, used to only get 200 l from it before start sucking air and need a rest which is plenty for the house. I filled a 600 l spray tank from it a few wks ago with only a couple of small rests in between. My feeling is it is getting better with age as water finds its way to the casing. It has been very reliable right through our big drought. The people who had it dug would have liked to go deeper but couldn't afford more.
In my bush block I have about 12 mining exploration drill holes drilled about 13 years ago, most have water at about 12 m. I have been pumping from one for stock stock water. It seems to regenerate a lot quicker now that I have repaired an old mining dam and it is now holding some water. Maybe it has provided a bit of pressure, they all seem to be connected as the water height in the holes seem to be about the same when you allow for the elevation of the terrain above them.

Ken

 

[Redgully]

I run my house from a bore. It is only down about 20 m according to the drill log. The people I bought the place from had it put down just before they sold. It is only low yielding, used to only get 200 l from it before start sucking air and need a rest which is plenty for the house. I filled a 600 l spray tank from it a few wks ago with only a couple of small rests in between. My feeling is it is getting better with age as water finds its way to the casing. It has been very reliable right through our big drought. The people who had it dug would have liked to go deeper but couldn't afford more.
In my bush block I have about 12 mining exploration drill holes drilled about 13 years ago, most have water at about 12 m. I have been pumping from one for stock stock water. It seems to regenerate a lot quicker now that I have repaired an old mining dam and it is now holding some water. Maybe it has provided a bit of pressure, they all seem to be connected as the water height in the holes seem to be about the same when you allow for the elevation of the terrain above them.

Ken

Sounds like you have a water table there. Have you had the mining water tested for contamination? I guess if the livestock are doing ok it is a pretty good answer. What were they looking for there?

Where i am in the hills, about 1200ft above see level, we have streams in the ground above the granite and fractures, or dykes, in the granite caused by dolorite pushing up millions of years ago. A friend asked me to divine a bore right next to an existing bore he wanted to re drill deeper. The existing bore was 60ft deep. I picked a spot about five meters away. It felt better on the wire than the existing bore. I only divine for fun, not sure why the wire moves or what causes it to move. So they drill down to 60ft and just dust, the bore 5 meters away was still pumping about 1500 litres an hour. They get to 140ft and still dust but hit granite. The existing bore was only drilled to 60ft as was drilled with a cable tool and the granite was at 60ft. Some strange stuff going on in the ground. So they drill into the granite and hit a huge fracture at 180ft and it was yielding 20,000 litres an hour. The whole time the existing bore was still pumping its 1500 litres.

 

[wbvs58]

Red they were mining in my place from the 1870's up until early 1990's, mostly alluvial tin. A lot of small scale pick and shovel but also some bigger companies with dredges. We back onto the NSW border so on the watershed (rain on our place drains into the Murray Darling system, NSW side drains to the coast via the Clarence river). The alluvial tin would have originated from the rock along the border so there has also been a bit of deep mining done looking for the lode of tin. We have one hole up the back 6'x6'x 65' deep dug by hand at the rate of 1' per week through the rock in 1874. We have another shaft that has a bit of underground work that I believe they got a bit of wolfram (tungstun) out of but I think that was post war when modern alloy metals were being developed.
With the drilling they found Tin, molybdenin, tungstun and a 4th one I can never remember. They were looking for gold but did not find anything significant. I spoke to a geologist who was consulting for a big mining company that was interested in buying the mining rights from the exploration company but in his opinion the minerals were in too narrow veins to be a viable proposition to extract. He said that is not to say that in the future it may be viable if the metal prices continued to go up.
I am sure that the type of mining that has been done here did not use any chemicals for extraction. It has been left in a bit of a mess, open cut areas from the most recent just left. Areas that look like a WW1 battlefield from the pick and shovel miners plus old dredge holes.

 

[Redgully]

Sounds like you wouldn't want to wander around at night! Well at least you'd have no shortage of long drops.

 

[Chapin81]

Work stopped because something broke on something that controls hydraulic fluid I didn't get to many details. Now patiently waiting for Monday so the repairs can be made.

 

[Redgully]

Work stopped because something broke on something that controls hydraulic fluid I didn't get to many details. Now patiently waiting for Monday so the repairs can be made.

Any idea what depth you are at? Looks like you need to get below that clay before things pick up. Not sure what your ground is like but I'd want to be hitting rock before around 140ft, any deeper could get messy.