sire of progeny matter

[SEC]

My wife is gone for the weekend with the kids and suddenly I have a brainstorm of activity.

Does it really matter who is the sire to the bulls or heifers you are marketing?
Do they need to be AI or does it matter.

If they are natural and you are using a bull heavily, you can ensure confidence to your customers through your faith. As long as the pedigree is right and the animal is good, i doubt the cows would know if the bull is AI sired or not.


Some areas it might matter if AI sired or not, it would depend on the area I guess. Who has schooled the buyer to think that AI sired is better or not.

 

[lakading]

I care more about what the dam looks like than the sire.

It takes a great cow to make a great bull.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

It matters in my business. People want recognizable pedigrees on both sides, if going into their PB herd. Even show calves need pedigree in most cases - but can get by without if good phenotype & good EPD's.
Actually the big bucks come out of cattle that are not only out of national sires but also national cows. Flushing is really getting to be big business.
My cattle are backed with 35 years of AI - so yes, I am a believer. We stuck our neck out breeding so many of our cows to our homegrown bull. That was potential suicide :shock: but he is well known thru showing & AI books have him listed, and the calves turned out super -- so -- worked out just as we planned (phew) We'll see if his pedigree hurts us at the up coming sale in April.

 

[SEC]

I would agree with Lakading. A strong cow family means a lot, in fact multiple cow families that have been landmark make a big difference.

I am always amazed how some breeders get put up on a pedestal because the bulls they raise. Not that credit shouldn't be given when it's due. But it also leaves room for some lesser cattle to be given more notriety than what they might deserve as well, that's life though.

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

I will agree with Jeanne. In my business, I am a registered seedstock producer. I sell the customer, whom ever it be, a registered bull, heifer, cow, etc. So for example, if I have a potential buyer of a really nice herd bull prospect and the bull looks really thick and musclar, but he isn't registered, nor has he ever had any blood work done on him to determine what his bloodlines are, then who does that potential buyer know what he is purchasing. Buying quality may cost a little more, but its worth it, because you know what your getting, rather than not knowing at all. SEC, I am glad I am not buying anything off of you. I couldn't trust you as a potential seller, because you could tell me anything about a certain animal and I wouldn't know if you were trying to screw me over or telling me the truth. Better think the next time before asking such a question. :cboy:

 

[SEC]

Easy now, you have misread my intentions. I am not at all for selling bulls with no parentage, I never said that anywhere.

What I was meaning, does it matter whether or not the animal is AI sired or out of your herdbull. Up here, any herdbulls that are used on your registered cows must have his parentage verified by DNA before any calves may be registered.

So you see I was asking.............Do your customers care if the bull or heifer they bull is AI sired or out of your PUREBRED REGISTERED HERDSIRE. It's of utmost parentage that you know what kind of bloodlines are kicking around.

Believe me, selling bulls as Angus just because they are black and are showing the characteristics doesn't cut it.

Before you fly off the handle make sure you know what is actually being said. Pretty nasty words for misreading the question.

 

[Cattleman200]

I think it would depend on your situation and which direction you wanted your program to go. I raise and sell registered animals and certainly in most cases animals sired by popular AI sires are worth more money in the long run. It also pays to keep up with the "HOT" AI bulls because offspring out of them have potential to be worth even more money. Most breeders do not own bulls that can sire calves worth as much as top AI sired animals. On the other hand I sell several bulls a year to commercial buyers and alot of them are more concerned with birthweights and eye appeal. Most of them really dont know about bloodlines and whats hot or not. It would also depend if you are selling everything or retaining females to try and improve your cow base quality. Heifers and bulls out of a son of a son of a popular bull bred back to another pasture bull would be going backward in my opinion. A progressive breeder should always be looking for ways to improve their herd.

Circle H Ranch
http://www.chrlimousin.com

 

[cypressfarms]

On the other hand I sell several bulls a year to commercial buyers and alot of them are more concerned with birthweights and eye appeal. Most of them really dont know about bloodlines and whats hot or not. It would also depend if you are selling everything or retaining females to try and improve your cow base quality. Heifers and bulls out of a son of a son of a popular bull bred back to another pasture bull would be going backward in my opinion. A progressive breeder should always be looking for ways to improve their herd.

Circle H Ranch
http://www.chrlimousin.com

C200,

I agree with you in some aspects, but being a cow/calf producer, I could care less what is "hot". I don't agree with your definition of "improving the herd". I want bulls to complement my cows. I then select heifers that have the traits that I want, cull after some growing and watching. Cows get the same treatment; they are watched closely, and one's that don't perform will leave. Famous blood lines are not important to someone who wants the maximum qty & quality of pounds per calf every year. The reason why certain bulls are hot is hype. Sure, they may be good bulls, but the hype makes them "hot". A commericial producer can find a bull just as good as some of the "hot" bulls if he/she spends the time to look.

I would take good epd's and phenotype over the latest "hot" fad any day. Maybe I'm mis-interpreting your meaning, sorry if so, but my opinion of improving a herd has nothing to do with increasing a certain blood line because it's the latest "hot" thing.

BTW, don't knock the commercial guy too much. Wouldn't be a need for seedstock producers without them!

 

[Brandonm2]

I agree with that to a point Cypress. When I am looking for a bull, what he looks like, depth, width, length, height, muscling, head size and shape, structure, etc matter a lot more than who his daddy was. I also like to see good balanced EPDs and acceptable performance numbers from the bull (no 450 lb weaning wt dinks or 115 lb birth wts) and I had better like his mama...

All that said, I think it is a selling point if I recognize some names in the pedigree. I am not willing to say that I would automatically reject a John Doe bull, sired by a John Doe bull, out of a John Doe cow, who was sired by a previous John Doe bull; but somebody who runs a closed herd is going to have to really do a good job of convincing me that he knows what he is doing and that his cattle are good enough to get the job done. This is also where reputation matters. If I know the breeder and I know the cattle he produces, I care less about the pedigree than I do if I have NEVER purchased any cattle from him in the past and don't know anybody who has. IF you have sold hundreds of bulls over the years and have established a reputation, I think it is a lot easier to sell home bred bulls out of home bred cows; than if this is your first foray into the bull business.

 

[houstoncutter]

It takes a great cow to make a great bull........but it takes an even better bull to pass on his traits to his offspring.... Those are the ones seedstock producers should be looking for.

 

[SEC]

It would also depend if you are selling everything or retaining females to try and improve your cow base quality. Heifers and bulls out of a son of a son of a popular bull bred back to another pasture bull would be going backward in my opinion.

So if this is the case, the calves off of the "cover"bull are to be sold and not put back into the herd.
So does that mean Jim Sitz culls everything off of his "cover" bulls? These AI bulls aren't made in a labratory, they are someones herdbull. I don't think these guys are thinking...hmmmm I bet you if I bred this cow to this bull that it would be an AI bull.

What if the calves off of your herdbull are better than the AI calves? Spontaneous combustion probably!

No bull is perfect, but without trying to be cocky or ignorant, I would say we have calves off of our herdbull(s) that are every bit as good and certainly more consistent. I have seen the dam to the bulls, not a picture of a fat dry flush cow. Not every herdbull works out and certainly not every AI bull works out.

 

[Frankie]

My wife is gone for the weekend with the kids and suddenly I have a brainstorm of activity.

Does it really matter who is the sire to the bulls or heifers you are marketing?
Do they need to be AI or does it matter.

It matters to me. I won't buy a non-AI sired cow. Why would I expect my customers to buy one? My experience is that you can sell an Angus bull if he looks good, has good numbers and performance information whether he's AI sired or not. But when you run a pasture sired female through the sale ring, no matter how she looks or what her numbers are, she'll take a hit compared to an AI sired female. And it seems to me that I'm starting to see people discount pasture bred bulls compared to AI sired bulls somewhat.

If they are natural and you are using a bull heavily, you can ensure confidence to your customers through your faith. As long as the pedigree is right and the animal is good, i doubt the cows would know if the bull is AI sired or not.

You've got to be a bigger operation than I am to use any bull heavily. No bull works well on every cow. By using AI I can select bulls to complement individual cows. I doubt the cows care, but the customers do.

Some areas it might matter if AI sired or not, it would depend on the area I guess. Who has schooled the buyer to think that AI sired is better or not.

I'm sure it depends on the area and your market. We sell mostly private treaty and consignment sales. People are happy to see well known names in pedigrees. I'm a buyer. I have a budget and simply won't take a chance on an unknown bull.

Yes, in my market it matters whether an animal is AI sired or not, especially females.

Then whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter. It's what the customer wants and is willing to pay for.

 

[cypressfarms]

Then whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter. It's what the customer wants and is willing to pay for.

Frankie, extremely good point. The seedstock producer has a different customer than the cow calf producer. Some seem to forget that in the frenzy to have the latest "Hot" thing.

 

[MikeC]

Like an old gentleman told me once,

"They'll bring more money the more you can talk about them."

 

[SEC]

I'm a buyer. I have a budget and simply won't take a chance on an unknown bull.

Guess what unless you are using bulls that are old... they are unproven whether or not they are AI sired. Ever wonder why full brothers from the same flush can even be so different?

TC Stockman and TC Rancher are flush brothers, both are AI sired and yet they are like peas and carrots when it comes to their abilities. I don't care how many generations of AI an animal comes from they are still no more proven then what the accuracies of they EPD's indicate.

I don't run a lot of cows. We will calves just under 60 head this year and will breed about 80 head this year. Of that I plan to breed around 1/2 of the cows to one bull. He's not perfect, but he's does less wrong then a lot of bulls I know. Producing the best calves I can is all I am after, the fact that it's not an AI bull makes me even more excited. EPD wise his combination of EPD's leave him in the top of the breed. This he has proven on his own and at the ranch where he was sold to, he started out with modest numbers. I own his dam, have a few daughters and everything points towards using him hard, without the EPD's.

 

[MikeC]

Frankie, extremely good point. The seedstock producer has a different customer than the cow calf producer.

Sorry to differ here but the seedstock producers largest bull customer is the cow-calf producer. There are few exceptions.

 

[Frankie]

Frankie, extremely good point. The seedstock producer has a different customer than the cow calf producer.

Sorry to differ here but the seedstock producers largest bull customer is the cow-calf producer. There are few exceptions.

Actually, I think you're agreeing with him.

 

[redfornow]

I will agree with Jeanne. In my business, I am a registered seedstock producer. I sell the customer, whom ever it be, a registered bull, heifer, cow, etc. So for example, if I have a potential buyer of a really nice herd bull prospect and the bull looks really thick and musclar, but he isn't registered, nor has he ever had any blood work done on him to determine what his bloodlines are, then who does that potential buyer know what he is purchasing. Buying quality may cost a little more, but its worth it, because you know what your getting, rather than not knowing at all. SEC, I am glad I am not buying anything off of you. I couldn't trust you as a potential seller, because you could tell me anything about a certain animal and I wouldn't know if you were trying to screw me over or telling me the truth. Better think the next time before asking such a question. :cboy:

HCF doesnt get alot, like how to spell polled, the date of his or any other sells.
I bought my fair share of hereford bulls, via private treaty in my time and I would NOT buy from him.
Ignorance will spread and I am more afraid of that than a homegrown bull.

MD

 

[SF]

...Does it really matter who is the sire to the bulls or heifers you are marketing?...

If you are a seedstock producers and you are selling replacement heifers and/or herd bulls, it most certainly does matter.

...Do they need to be AI or does it matter...

Does not matter. What matters is quality. If you have an excellent bull that is better than some of the AI bulls, then by all means use him.

 

[SF]

I care more about what the dam looks like than the sire.

It takes a great cow to make a great bull.

I'm going to disagree with you here. I care what they both look like. I will agree that the cow is providing 50% of the genetic potential, but the bull is providing the other 50%. It usually takes a great cow and a great bull to make a better bull.

JMO