Simangus

[Massey135]

But I thought a pb simm only had to be 88% (or less?) Pb simm to be registered ? Where'd you get the 99.9%??? So now your saying a 88% pb simm is a good bit black angus(obvious by color and phenotype) and then some red Angus and fb simm compiling that 88% and then 12% of somethin else unknown. Then you want to breed that composite to an Angus and call it a sim Angus?? Do whhhhat!?

 

[JustSimmental]

You are confused about what a PBSM is and what a SM/AN is.
You said that some ppl considered the FBSM x PBAN as a PB << do I need to copy and paste what you just wrote?
I will try one more time: If you started way back when and bred a FBSM to a PBAN you WILL NOT GET A PBSM
FB SM x PBAN = 50%/ 50% ---- 50% FB and 50% AN (and you are right --no one wants one of those-- that's an awful cross)
to get a PBSM from that type of Mating you would have to do the following:

You would then have to breed several more generations to a PBSM to get a true PBSM.(which has already been done many,many moons ago) :lol:

They did all this in the early 70's before you were born.

Today after so many generations of PBSM breeding we have a Stabilized PBSM.
We take that PBSM and breed to a PBAN which produces a Simm Angus F1 or we call the often a Simmental Hybrid.

Your argument would have have been more realistic if we were back in the early 70's--- but not today when many generations have been produced that make most PBSM's of today 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% SM

Look at my example of 2482295 who is a 1/2 SM 1/2 AN cow-- her Simmental bloodlines go all the way back to FB but 10 generations ago and not last week.

But I thought a pb simm only had to be 88% (or less?) Pb simm to be registered ? Where'd you get the 99.9%??? So now your saying a 88% pb simm is a good bit black angus(obvious by color and phenotype) and then some red Angus and fb simm compiling that 88% and then 12% of somethin else unknown. Then you want to breed that composite to an Angus and call it a sim Angus?? Do whhhhat!?

 

[Massey135]

Pb simms aren't/weren't stabalized at a high enough simmentHal % for my liking.


If pb simms weren't created from crossing fullblood simms and Angus, then what the h did they use???

 

[JustSimmental]

:deadhorse:

Pb simms aren't/weren't stabalized at a high enough simmentHal % for my liking.


If pb simms weren't created from crossing fullblood simms and Angus, then what the h did they use???

:deadhorse:

 

[Massey135]

Answer the question. You clearly said purebred simms weren't created by crossing fb simms and Angus. I ask again - what breeds were crossed to stabalize pb simm?

Like RBB added, a pb simm x Angus is not a true f1 as pb simms already have considerable Angus influence.

You discount the hybrid vigor of brangus x Angus but make pb simm x Angus out as the ultimate cross. Somethin ain't right.

 

[Gators Rule]

Pb simms aren't/weren't stabalized at a high enough simmentHal % for my liking.


If pb simms weren't created from crossing fullblood simms and Angus, then what the h did they use???

This is why you raise shorthorns...

 

[Massey135]

The coronas put the hurt on me tonight, I'm not sure I'm pickin up on your innuendo?

From the Purebred simms website, it states that the majority of purebred simmental were bred up to 7/8 blood simmental, which they consider purebred, using Angus bulls. If my math is correct, purebred simmental are 12.5% (1/8)Angus blood.

Simangus are closer to 3/5 Angus than 1/2.

 

[Massey135]

56.25% Angus is actually closer to 4/7ths. My bad.

 

[Lucky_P]

Massey,
Angus isn't the only other genetics way back in the background on the PB Simmentals (or Angus, either, for that matter). Most of the 'continental' breeds have an open herdbook, allowing for 'breeding-up' to purebred status from any base. The black in many of my Simmental-influenced cows came from Holsteins and an old black horned cow - probably with some Jersey up close in her woodpile. I'm pretty certain that there are some good Hereford cows way back in the pedigree - even on the homo black PB Simmentals.

If you have to go 8-10 or more generations back to find something besides PB Simmental in the pedigree, it's hard to make a case that a black Simmental is significantly 'Angus'.
No, most of the modern PB American Simmentals don't look much like the FB or PB Simmental bulls I used back in the 80s - but today's Angus cattle don't look much like the Angus of that day, either. Coat color can hang in there, even when other breed traits are long gone - I'm still getting white calves out of descendents of a little yellow white-faced cow I bought in 1986, who evidently had some Charolais in her ancestry. 8 generations of 'black' breeding, and it still comes through - but they're not Charolais.

Some Angus purists won't have anything to do with anything with Pine Drive Big Sky in its background, no matter how far back he is - though there's no conclusive proof that he was, as some have rumored, 'the most influential Amerifax bull in Angus history'. I - and the AAA - consider my current Angus herdsire to be 100% Angus, even though PDBS is 8 generations back in his pedigree.

 

[Massey135]

I understand everything you're saying. Their Assoc says they used Angus bulls over fb cows to produce pbs. Just going by what the assoc says.

I'm no purist but 7/8 (3 crosses) to attain purebred status is a joke. And then the fact that you can use that 3rd cross animal to then breed up other crossbred cattle is even wilder. The charolais association requires females to be 31/32. That's 5 crosses. The whole upgrading process of all these breeds, even shorthorns, discourages me. I feel they should have to use fullblood bulls to breed up mongrel cows to purebred status.

The Angus breeders like ohlde, Larry leonhardt, pharo that haven't infused outside blood in their herd still produce Angus.

 

[cow pollinater]

I'm no purist but 7/8 (3 crosses) to attain purebred status is a joke. .

This from someone who thinks that crossing an angus with a shorthorn and then covering that cross with a char will give a black influenced calf. :???:

FWIW. It makes good sence for a continental breed to have an open herd book and for english breeds to close the herdbook(which, by the way, leaves shorthorns out flapping in the wind)... Continentals have been used in the past as terminal crosses and so purity isn't as much of an issue. English cattle are somewhat more picky since the daughters will likely stay in the herd for awhile.

 

[Massey135]

I'm no purist but 7/8 (3 crosses) to attain purebred status is a joke. .

This from someone who thinks that crossing an angus with a shorthorn and then covering that cross with a char will give a black influenced calf. :???:

FWIW. It makes good sence for a continental breed to have an open herd book and for english breeds to close the herdbook(which, by the way, leaves shorthorns out flapping in the wind)... Continentals have been used in the past as terminal crosses and so purity isn't as much of an issue. English cattle are somewhat more picky since the daughters will likely stay in the herd for awhile.

So you think continentals should only be used as terminal sires? Good! Something we agree on.

As far as the "black influenced calves" - they're as much black influenced as they are char influenced. F1 shorthorn x Angus solid black cows bred to char bulls throw smoke colored calves. Just as black baldies bred char throw smoke colored white faced calves. I have smoke colored calves on the ground right now out of brangus x red Angus cross cows bred char. Other than a little less ear, you nor anyone else would be able to distinguish them from the brangus char cross calves.

 

[biels]

I am a sim man. I find that most simmentals that are 'purebred' aren't really even 7/8 pure when you look at their pedigree on paper, you will see when you extend it out to the 64 level that most 'purebreds' arent even 70% pure. I am very irritated with this, I have done some calculations and at the rate were going in 20 yrs the average pb sim wont even be 50% pure. The ASA is becoming the AAA jr, lol. Were all just copying angus. No purebred breeders use any FB sim genetics. Some ppl think theres only a handful of major bloodlines in the gene pool of angus, but the sim gene pool is even worse. Todays average PB cow goes back to 600U at least 6 times. I am also wondering something about angus since I have a few of them and am planning to keep extending my Angus herd. Are todays american angus really pure? I know they claim they are, but I also know that they have grown tremendously in height and WW and YW numbers since 30yrs ago. Is this evolution or is this the result of people registering angus like pine drive big sky that arent rly 100% angus? Did other breeds get in the angus gene pool, if so which ones? My guess it could possibly be Chi or Sim. One last question, I am wanting to start a true f1 program and am debating ether A.I.ing my angus cows to FB Sim bull, or buying FB sim cows and AI.ing them to angus, (which i think is the better option, since you wudnt want to take a homo black animal and bred it to have hetro, or even choclate progeny.) Anyways if I do get cows I was wondering which FB sim bull is best for balance, and eye appeal, I really dont like all the underjaw waiste most FB sim have. I have been looking into HP King so far, is he any good?