Sim x Charolais?

[RoanDurham]

That would be like the pot calling the kettle black now wouldn't it.

These people have lost their mind, they are completely oblivious to what a generality even is.

1) there are many black simangus and an even larger number of black simm bulls w/ over 100lb bws.

2) I've helped my neighbor pull more 'long and slender' 120lb Holstein calves than I care to remember. He regularly jokes about those who go on about calf shape.

The only people you hear talk about calf shape are those dabbling in the big bw genetics. That's their copout.

I'm sure many respectable Simmental breeders on here will disagree with you on the bulls with 100+lbs bws.

As for your story on 120lbs Holstein calves...since when did you started to work at a dairy?

There's nothing to disagree with - what I've said is fact. There are Simmental bulls with over 100 pound bw, just like there are Simmental bulls with 60 pound birth weights. That's not even a question, it's a verifiable, known fact. Do I really have to go to the Simmental database and get the registration numbers? Is that what what it's going to take, folks? Never once have I insinuated that Simmental are any harder calving than any other breed. What I did say is that an astute cattlemen would not use vague generalities such as was used when it was said that a "second calver would be able to calve 'any simangus bull that was thrown at them.'" We know this not to be true and in definite terms because we know there are many Simmental and SimAngus bulls with over 100 pound birth weights JUST LIKE THERE ARE IN EVERY BREED!!!! and we know many second calvers will have difficulty calving out hundred pound calves.

I've never worked at a dairy. I have walked across the street and helped my neighbor pull several calves though. Holsteins are as long and slender as they come and regularly have to be pulled. Not because of their shape,, but because of their sheer size.

 

[Taurus]

And what is your point of this thread? That there are variables in every breeds?

 

[shortybreeder]

And what is your point of this thread? That there are variables in every breeds?

That's what I'm getting out of it... First he brings up there are 60lb bw and then 100lb bw... Pretty much whatever it takes to get the point of the post across...
I think those will be some nice calves. I had a holxherf cow (3rd calf) put a live calf on the ground out of a simangus bull (just whatever was in the breeder's tank, happened to be Encore) within 15 minutes of being sent outside in the morning... I'd say the reason why so many holsteins get pulled is because the sires are rarely picked out based on bw or calving difficulty, we put the same semen in a 6 yr old cow as we do with a virgin heifer, but the main difference is that with dairy cattle you are around them much more frequently so it's not such a big deal to have to pull 3/4 of the calves that are born. You might even pull a few that don't need assistance just to get them into the nursery and to get the colostrum out of the cow... Comparing dairy calving difficulties to beef calving difficulties is a lot like comparing apples to oranges...

 

[RoanDurham]

What does any of that have to do with the fact that, despite Holsteins long slender bodies at birth, many have to be pulled because of their excessive birthweight? The calves that I've assisted were pulled because they were just too damn big--that's all there was to it.

On a side note, I am extremely knowledgeable regarding Shorthorn pedigrees... And I don't know that there is even one Shorthorn bull out there that I would feel comfortable breeding my heifers to...that is also of good enough quality to breed to my mature cows. Without question,the best representative bulls in our breed have low to mid 90 pound birth weights. I guarantee you I will be able to reduce birth weights in these lines much more quickly than you or anyone else will be able to increase the quality of the low birth weight lines.

 

[Taurus]

Be careful with your overconfidence, that's where everyone lost respect for you just like many times ago every time you got new username and you became overconfident. And why you have to mentioned that you will be better at getting low birth weight in Shorthorns than other members in here?

 

[RoanDurham]

As far as I'm concerned, the proof is in the pudding, partna. You, or anyone else for that matter, are welcome to come check em out anytime you want. As cliché as it sounds, "don't hate the player, hate the game."

Those familiar with Shorthorn bloodlines know there is a quality gap between the low birth weight lines and those that have ~ upper 80 ~90 pound birth weights. As you become a better cattleman, you will come to accept the fact that is more feasible to reduce birthweight and maintain quality than it is to maintain birthweight and increase quality.

 

[Taurus]

I don't remembered anyone mentioned Shorthorns in here so why we have a discussion about shorthorns and their birth weights? Isn't the thread is about why Simmental x Charolais is good cross or bad cross?

 

[RoanDurham]

Was it a reach for me to assume 'shorthorn breeder' was referring to shorthorns when he said "we breed...." ?

In theory, all crosses are good. Without seeing the individuals in question, no one can give you any insight as far as the quality of the cross referring to.

As diluted as the true Simmental blood is in purebred Simmentals, in theory, I see no reason why the cross shouldn't be pretty complementary. Over British cows, I would much prefer the fullbloods; over continentals, such a charolais, the purebreds are likely a better option.

 

[wacocowboy]

I think the Sim Char cross is a pretty darn good cross. Kinda seen it before they were using F1 Charbrays with a Sim Bull and the results were great.

 

[Nesikep]

All this because ANAZAZI said "That should make for some massive calves"... didn't mention if it was at birth or at weaning!

Could it be that part of the reason more dairy calves are assisted at birth is because of less maternal calving ease? I had shorthorn bulls for 10 years and didn't have much issue with them, They made cows that could push the calf through sideways if they had to. I don't know what happened in my herd, but suddenly my BW's increased about 15 lbs on average from one year to the next, with the same bull, and has stayed there through 2 bulls now (I'll be able to tell you next year if it's 3). I can say I'm glad I've selected for the maternal side of calving ease as it opens up doors to other growthier bulls. On about 20 calves a year, I'd say I have 5 over 100, and usually 2 or so in the 130-140 lb range.. Heifers seem to make 80ish lb calves, and if I'm around I'll give them a hand to speed it up and not get them tired out. I had one heifer 4 years ago with a 110 lb bull calf, that was the only hard pull on a normal presentation in about 100 calves. If you want to see a shorthorn cow plop out a 140 lb calf in about 3 minutes, search youtube for "Tizia Joules"...

I think that cross should be good, I don't like smokey calves, but they should be really nicely built!

GlacierRidge... I *really* like that simxchar heifer!

 

[glacierridge]

Thank you Nesikep.
I've liked her since day one myself.
The blaze faced girl is going to be shown by my nephew in August, we'll see how she stacks up against other project animals.

 

[shortybreeder]

Was it a reach for me to assume 'shorthorn breeder' was referring to shorthorns when he said "we breed...." ?

If you re-read the post you will see that the context is regarding Holsteins. We have a dairy herd and a beef herd, and for that post I was utilizing experiences from the dairy herd. Sorry for the mixup.

 

[RoanDurham]

All this because ANAZAZI said "That should make for some massive calves"... didn't mention if it was at birth or at weaning!
quote]

Wouldn't have made a difference. Generalities are rampant around here and it's of no service to anyone to continue using them. The variation within the breeds now make it impossible to speak of a particular breed using these vague stereotypes. It's impossible to infer anything about the cross when the only information that was given was 'charolais x Simmental.' Is that a lt bluegrass x explorer cross or a m6 gain & grade x Nichols Manifest cross? With these two char x simm cross being at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of performance, you can see how making a generalization regarding charolais x simm crosses can get you in trouble.

 

[Taurus]

All this because ANAZAZI said "That should make for some massive calves"... didn't mention if it was at birth or at weaning!
quote]

Wouldn't have made a difference. Generalities are rampant around here and it's of no service to anyone to continue using them. The variation within the breeds now make it impossible to speak of a particular breed using these vague stereotypes. It's impossible to infer anything about the cross when the only information that was given was 'charolais x Simmental.' Is that a lt bluegrass x explorer cross or a m6 gain & grade x Nichols Manifest cross? With these two char x simm cross being at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of performance, you can see how making a generalization regarding charolais x simm crosses can get you in trouble.

And why you are making a big deal out of it? As I have said this before, my friend is raising registered stock and he would know which sire to use on his Charolais cows to get a marketable calf. His charolais cows should be fine with any Simmi or SimAngus bulls as they are capable to handle large calves. They had large calves before.

 

[shortybreeder]

All this because ANAZAZI said "That should make for some massive calves"... didn't mention if it was at birth or at weaning!
quote]

Wouldn't have made a difference. Generalities are rampant around here and it's of no service to anyone to continue using them. The variation within the breeds now make it impossible to speak of a particular breed using these vague stereotypes. It's impossible to infer anything about the cross when the only information that was given was 'charolais x Simmental.' Is that a lt bluegrass x explorer cross or a m6 gain & grade x Nichols Manifest cross? With these two char x simm cross being at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of performance, you can see how making a generalization regarding charolais x simm crosses can get you in trouble.

It's more a question of maximizing heterosis and complimenting the positive traits of each breed.

 

[RoanDurham]

If maximizing heterosis is the concern, a percentage purebred of any breed is not the way to go.

 

[ANAZAZI]

All this because ANAZAZI said "That should make for some massive calves"... didn't mention if it was at birth or at weaning!

Absolutely certain at weaning, and most likely at birth. I wrote another post on the matter, I see now it must have been lost (sometimes happens if someone else writes before you publish, and you do not look for that).
In my surroundings this cross is common, albeit more often the char is the sire so the milking ability of the simmenthal is an advantage. The cross makes for big birth weights (hardly a problem for any of the two breeds), very good growth and good muscle. it is however an expensive way to get good feeders as the parent animals eat enormous amounts of forage.

 

[ANAZAZI]

And partly off topic:
As for holsteins and their calving; bear two things in mind, dairy cattle usually live in an environment of high energy and protein (big calves) and do often not get enough exercise to calve with ease.
And do not mistake dairy and holstein, many other dairy breeds; Jersey, Swedish Red (nowadays marketed as Viking Red), milking simmenthal and so on have easier calvings, simply because of a different conformation. :2cents:

 

[RoanDurham]

All this because ANAZAZI said "That should make for some massive calves"... didn't mention if it was at birth or at weaning!

Absolutely certain at weaning, and most likely at birth. I wrote another post on the matter, I see now it must have been lost (sometimes happens if someone else writes before you publish, and you do not look for that).
In my surroundings this cross is common, albeit more often the char is the sire so the milking ability of the simmenthal is an advantage. The cross makes for big birth weights (hardly a problem for any of the two breeds), very good growth and good muscle. it is however an expensive way to get good feeders as the parent animals eat enormous amounts of forage.

My god, man. Are you aware of the generalizations you make here? "The cross makes for big birth weights" ??? Yes there are some individuals within those breeds who have 'big birth weights.' There are also some individuals within those breeds with low birth weights. A 1200lb charolais cow does not eat any more than a 1200lb angus cow or a 1200lb Hereford cow. Familiarize yourself with the MARC (MEAT ANIMAL RESEARCH CENTER) in Nebraska. Per their new data, the average Angus cow in the US weighs more than the average Charolais or Simmental cow.

 

[RoanDurham]

And do not mistake dairy and holstein, many other dairy breeds; Jersey, Swedish Red (nowadays marketed as Viking Red), milking simmenthal and so on have easier calvings, simply because of a different conformation. :2cents:

Simply because Jerseys are 60lbs at birth and Holsteins are 120. I agree the energy level of the ration plays a part but the primary factor for huge birth weights in Holsteins is the single trait selection for high milk production. Many Holstein breeders have overlooked birth weight in pursuit for milk production for decades and, as a result, they have big calves. I don't care if you turn a Holstein out on a grass only ration,,,, she's not going to throw a 60lb calf.