Sim x Charolais?

[Taurus]

My friend is gonna do a Black Simmental bull on his five Charolais cows for smokey calves. What you think of this cross?

 

[ANAZAZI]

A cross for massive calves.

 

[RoanDurham]

A cross for massive calves.

or tiny calves. 60lb bw bulls in both breeds. The use of vague generalizations in this industry is such a disservice.

 

[Taurus]

A cross for massive calves.

or tiny calves. 60lb bw bulls in both breeds. The use of vague generalizations in this industry is such a disservice.

Well Gassey135, I would think that the calves will growing like weeds...

 

[RoanDurham]

If you align your selection protocol w/ that goal, I'm sure they will. But to suggest that a sim x char cross is going to have massive calves is an unfounded stretch.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I guess it depends on what the definition of "massive" is. Mature Chars could handle anything a SimAngus bull could throw.

First though that came to my mind was that the calves would be pretty big but also very growthy. I like the idea myself.

 

[RoanDurham]

When you say, 'mature chars,' are you meaning 1200lb mature chars cows or 2100lb mature char cows? Because there are many of both--- and all sizes in between.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Mature as in not 1st calf heifers.

Adults in other words.

 

[RoanDurham]

Mature Chars could handle anything a SimAngus bull could throw.

Mature as in not 1st calf heifers.

Adults in other words.

A lot of sim angus bulls with over 100lb bws. Many second calvers will have some level of difficulty with 100lb calves.

 

[Taurus]

When you say, 'mature chars,' are you meaning 1200lb mature chars cows or 2100lb mature char cows? Because there are many of both--- and all sizes in between.

And what is your point? It's just five Charolais cows and from what I seen, they appeared to be 1500lbs and they had calves before (both Charolais and Angus bulls). I'm sure they will be fine and can handle anything that SimAngus bull can throw at them.

 

[Taurus]

Mature Chars could handle anything a SimAngus bull could throw.

Mature as in not 1st calf heifers.

Adults in other words.

A lot of sim angus bulls with over 100lb bws. Many second calvers will have some level of difficulty with 100lb calves.

There are not lot of black Simmental and SimAngus bulls with over 100lbs bws. It has do something with the calf's design (long & slender vs short & blocky calves) and you can have some problematic births with 80lbs blocky calves.

 

[RoanDurham]

1) there are many black simangus and an even larger number of black simm bulls w/ over 100lb bws.

2) I've helped my neighbor pull more 'long and slender' 120lb Holstein calves than I care to remember. He regularly jokes about those who go on about calf shape.

The only people you hear talk about calf shape are those dabbling in the big bw genetics. That's their copout.

 

[Taurus]

1) there are many black simangus and an even larger number of black simm bulls w/ over 100lb bws.

2) I've helped my neighbor pull more 'long and slender' 120lb Holstein calves than I care to remember. He regularly jokes about those who go on about calf shape.

The only people you hear talk about calf shape are those dabbling in the big bw genetics. That's their copout.

I'm sure many respectable Simmental breeders on here will disagree with you on the bulls with 100+lbs bws.

As for your story on 120lbs Holstein calves...since when did you started to work at a dairy?

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Just suggest to your neighbor to use a "Gassy certified safe weight bull".

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Mature Chars could handle anything a SimAngus bull could throw.

Mature as in not 1st calf heifers.

Adults in other words.

A lot of sim angus bulls with over 100lb bws. Many second calvers will have some level of difficulty with 100lb calves.

That is interesting because we have been breeding Simmental cattle for several years now and only ONCE have I had a 100 pound. Yes, we weigh every calf on a certified true test scale. Old school genetics threw big birth weights, but you will not find that in any respectable breeders pastures today. Our calves are cut if they are typically over 90 pounds, we just do not want to put that out there.
Please do not stereotype Simmental cattle into "big birthweight" corner, it just isn't true any more. Look at your EPDs, they will tell you if you need to be worried about birth weight.

 

[RoanDurham]

I wasn't stereotyping Simmentals any more than the previous posters were stereotyping Charolais cows being able to handle 'anything' ANY simangus bull throws. This is the point I was trying to make: using vague generalities such as that when referring to breeds that have extreme variation within them is foolish. While you may choose to use low birth weight,more maternally oriented Simmental genetics, there are still many Simmental breeders who breed more terminally oriented bulls who have larger birth weights.... just as there are in Angus, just as there are in Hereford, just as there are in Charolais, just as there are in Shorthorn. To suggest that respectable Simmental breeders arent breeding cattle with birthweight over 90 pounds is a lie. SAV, for example, has some of the most coveted Angus genetics in the entire world..many of which have birth weights in excess of hundred pounds. To suggest that no Simmental/ Simmangus breeders are incorporating these genetics... well, you know that's just not true.

 

[Taurus]

I'm sure my friend will be fine and his Charolais cows are perfectly capable to have a calf out of Simmi or SimAngus bull. After all he has 100 head of registered black angus cattle and he does A.I on them and the commercial cows as well. I'm sure he knows what an EPD is and can read it. He also said that you're an idiot for stereotyping modern Simmentals that they throws large calves.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

That would be like the pot calling the kettle black now wouldn't it.

 

[glacierridge]

FS is right. We mostly AI. The modern Simmy results match what Kris states, and even the retro bulls we use also resulted in 100 or less normally.
We have several char cross cows, 1/2 bloods that we have bred some retro Simmy bulls to.
Here are two examples
This first one is from a very large cow, about 1700 and this was her 4th calf. Weighed 83 at birth and growing nicely

This one is from a different Simmy sire and is about 9 months old now, she's GROWTHY indeed, she's almost caught up to calves 2-3 months her senior.
She was about 75-80 from a second calf 1/2 Char cow

 

[Ohrmundt Simmentals]

A sim x char cross could turn out to be a very nice growthy cross. As far as calving using a simmy bull would be the way to go imo. There are so many factors in calving bw and difficulty. The vast majority is the genetics but it's also environment & nutrition. If those 2 are out of wack it can affect things to. Our last herd sire averaged around 93 lbs calves. As high a 110 heifer ( 8 yr old cow )this year and as low as about 76 lbs ( haven't weighed him but from a first calf heifer). Also the full brother to the 110 heifer that was born last year was only 89 lbs. The only calves we had to assist from that bull were do to presentation issues.
We also use to have angus cows back in the late 70's and early 80's. I the mid 80's we started going to simmys by buying 6 bred simmy cows. The very big traditional style. All mature size and all calved with no issue. We got them in late winter. That summer they were bred to our PB black angus bull. Dad ended up pulling 4 of 6 calves from those big simmy cows and these were only maybe 85-90 lbs. The issue was that the angus sired calves were so wide, head and shoulders. So shape does count. That's why you can have a high accuracy CE bull with a 100 bw.

Sim x Char might not be a mainstream cross but if it works, it works. That's all that matters.