xbred
Well-known member
don't be amazed my friend, isn't Satan prince of the earth ?
Sexed Semen
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HerefordSire
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xbred":24qd8tzf said:
That is what they say. I never met him though or any other angel, I don't think.
regolith
Well-known member
The sexed semen I've seen advertised is 4 - 5 times the cost of regular semen.
Most dairy folks here reckon on five inseminations for every heifer, I know my herd does it in four. So for the same cost, I get at least as many guaranteed heifers.
And like Jeanne, getting cows in calf early in the mating season is more important than generating heifers - the highest chance of a profitable outcome is having the cows calved in a short space of time ahead of peak grass growth. There's a market for surplus heifers some years, not others; even in the good years you'd hardly cover their cost of AI and milk.
The only use I can see for sexed semen under my system of dairying is getting more heifers from elite cows. Right now, I don't have any of those. Good cows. Cows I like a lot. But if they give me bulls every year, I reckon I can put up with that - especially when every drop in conception rate risks the cow herself if she can't get back in calf in time.
Most dairy folks here reckon on five inseminations for every heifer, I know my herd does it in four. So for the same cost, I get at least as many guaranteed heifers.
And like Jeanne, getting cows in calf early in the mating season is more important than generating heifers - the highest chance of a profitable outcome is having the cows calved in a short space of time ahead of peak grass growth. There's a market for surplus heifers some years, not others; even in the good years you'd hardly cover their cost of AI and milk.
The only use I can see for sexed semen under my system of dairying is getting more heifers from elite cows. Right now, I don't have any of those. Good cows. Cows I like a lot. But if they give me bulls every year, I reckon I can put up with that - especially when every drop in conception rate risks the cow herself if she can't get back in calf in time.
novaman
Well-known member
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly. It takes 5 inseminations to breed a heifer?regolith":2n0y7o44 said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Confused me too - is this 5 times with reg semen?novaman":qyqjaxtn said:
regolith
Well-known member
5:1 is a generally quoted figure - I'm not sure how it originated, but it takes into account reproductive failure, pregnant cows that get shipped, stillbirths.
Just for example - little over 2 years ago I was running 155 cows and did about 180 dairy insems in 6 weeks (standard frozen semen from LIC, tho that's not normal practice in this country as most use the fresh liquid straws). All other matings were beef semen or by the herd bull.
I got a fairly exact 50/50 ratio of heifers and bulls. 47 dairy heifers born, two of them were twinned to bulls. Today I have 45 yearling heifers running with a bull 180:45 is exactly 4:1
So that's the number I work on when deciding how many cows to mate to dairy/how many inseminations total I need to do to get the number of heifers I'll need. Initial conception rate is 65 - 70% (the ones that don't return to heat within 24 days).
This is higher conception rate than any of the experienced technicians who've inseminated cows in my own herd or herds I've managed... I just accept it with gratitude and don't ask why. I suspect that's why 5:1 is a more common ratio.
Just for example - little over 2 years ago I was running 155 cows and did about 180 dairy insems in 6 weeks (standard frozen semen from LIC, tho that's not normal practice in this country as most use the fresh liquid straws). All other matings were beef semen or by the herd bull.
I got a fairly exact 50/50 ratio of heifers and bulls. 47 dairy heifers born, two of them were twinned to bulls. Today I have 45 yearling heifers running with a bull 180:45 is exactly 4:1
So that's the number I work on when deciding how many cows to mate to dairy/how many inseminations total I need to do to get the number of heifers I'll need. Initial conception rate is 65 - 70% (the ones that don't return to heat within 24 days).
This is higher conception rate than any of the experienced technicians who've inseminated cows in my own herd or herds I've managed... I just accept it with gratitude and don't ask why. I suspect that's why 5:1 is a more common ratio.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Interesting way to look at it. Never heard anyone refer to that kind of ratio. But, I'm still a bit confused.
Out of 155 cows, you had 50/50 hfr/bull ratio. So, are you saying out of about 75 heifers, 45 were DAIRY heifers from the AI breeding?
So, you must have had a lot more AI BULLs than heifers? 155 cows x 65% conception = 100 calves plus calves from 2nd AI service?
Or am I still totally messed up?
Out of 155 cows, you had 50/50 hfr/bull ratio. So, are you saying out of about 75 heifers, 45 were DAIRY heifers from the AI breeding?
So, you must have had a lot more AI BULLs than heifers? 155 cows x 65% conception = 100 calves plus calves from 2nd AI service?
Or am I still totally messed up?
novaman
Well-known member
I was wondering the same thing as Jeanne but I'm also curious about the "fresh liquid straws". I had the understanding that semen had to be used in a very short order or would go bad without being frozen. Could you elaborate on how these liquid straws are kept viable?
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Yes, I meant to ask that also. I know when my Macho As U was collected, after freezing, he would pull 5 straws & thaw them. He would test one immediately, then 1 hour later test another, hr later another. He was totally amazed that Macho had 70% live viable sperm after 5 hours (shelf life). So, sounded to me at least "thawed" semen doesn't normally last very long. Sure never heard of anyone using "fresh" semen other than with horses.novaman":gdbcbb45 said:
AudieWyoming
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It was before my time but, I do recall the old dairymen talking about using fresh holstein semen. They told about having it flown into Colorado from dairys in the midwest.
As I typed this I also remembered that in the 80s ABS had the collection facilities at Wellington, Co. but they shipped the semen to Deforrest to freeze it.
As I typed this I also remembered that in the 80s ABS had the collection facilities at Wellington, Co. but they shipped the semen to Deforrest to freeze it.
regolith
Well-known member
Without going right back to the records, I couldn't tell you exactly how the numbers played out. There's always about another 5% loss with late returns - cows not cycling within 24 days of mating may well have been mated again by 50 or 60 days. It was a drought year - I know I sent at least three low producers for slaughter who were in-calf to AI. Again, I don't remember but I wouldn't have mated all 155 cows to dairy AI - probably the bottom 10% went to beef AI and a few late calvers didn't cycle in time.
I know the bull/heifer ratio overall was 50/50 - some years there are big discrepancies or you get a run of one then a run of the other, not that year.
At a guess it would have been something like - 1st three weeks 140 cows to dairy AI, second three weeks 40-odd returns to dairy AI, then turn the bull out.
Most years cow numbers would drop by 10% that fail to breed, replaced by heifers. That was the year I ran a subfertile bull and restarted AI - the bull plus me got 100% conception in weeks 10- 13 and I leased out almost all the in-calf heifers to another farmer to milk. So of that 155 cows about 140 were still there, and calved the following season. If I knew where that calving record was I could tell you how many calved in the first six weeks
4:1 is a very simple ratio to use because, for example, the contract I'm on now says I can rear 65 heifers - no more, and I must bring that number into the herd to maintain numbers so no less. Knowing what to expects lets me calculate how much semen to order, what proportion of the herd i can get away with *not* trying to breed heifers from (to concentrate only on the best cows) and during AI I can keep a running total and stop using the more expensive dairy semen once I've done the required number of matings and a few extra for surety.
LLL (long last liquid) is a secret recipe devised by the main breeding company out here (LIC) to support the most common method of obtaining dairy replacements.
(I think it's crazy because I learned farming in the UK and letting someone else make your mating decisions has never made sense to me).
LIC has a team of bulls which they rate as the best in the country, and from the start of mating (early October) these bulls are collected and the semen immediately packed into straws with the liquid extender and put in boxes for the AI technicians to take round the farms with them. They can be used for three days, don't even need to be refrigerated - and anything left over is discarded. The company rotates bulls so that a different bull is used each day, but the technician can choose from a previous day's bull to avoid an in-bred mating (and they carry frozen straws for back-up as well). I've seen the boxes they pack them in - they have nine drawers, three days each of Holstein-Friesian, Jersey and Crossbred.
The farmer only drafts his on-heat cows and specifies what breed he wants them mated to.
I think LLL straws have only a third of the semen in them that a frozen straw does. Don't think there's any difference in conception rate between the two - I was told at AI course to only thaw as much semen as I could use within twenty minutes. Five hours sounds exceptional.
Probably doesn't make much more sense but I think LIC have an explanation as well if I can find the link.
I know the bull/heifer ratio overall was 50/50 - some years there are big discrepancies or you get a run of one then a run of the other, not that year.
At a guess it would have been something like - 1st three weeks 140 cows to dairy AI, second three weeks 40-odd returns to dairy AI, then turn the bull out.
Most years cow numbers would drop by 10% that fail to breed, replaced by heifers. That was the year I ran a subfertile bull and restarted AI - the bull plus me got 100% conception in weeks 10- 13 and I leased out almost all the in-calf heifers to another farmer to milk. So of that 155 cows about 140 were still there, and calved the following season. If I knew where that calving record was I could tell you how many calved in the first six weeks
4:1 is a very simple ratio to use because, for example, the contract I'm on now says I can rear 65 heifers - no more, and I must bring that number into the herd to maintain numbers so no less. Knowing what to expects lets me calculate how much semen to order, what proportion of the herd i can get away with *not* trying to breed heifers from (to concentrate only on the best cows) and during AI I can keep a running total and stop using the more expensive dairy semen once I've done the required number of matings and a few extra for surety.
LLL (long last liquid) is a secret recipe devised by the main breeding company out here (LIC) to support the most common method of obtaining dairy replacements.
(I think it's crazy because I learned farming in the UK and letting someone else make your mating decisions has never made sense to me).
LIC has a team of bulls which they rate as the best in the country, and from the start of mating (early October) these bulls are collected and the semen immediately packed into straws with the liquid extender and put in boxes for the AI technicians to take round the farms with them. They can be used for three days, don't even need to be refrigerated - and anything left over is discarded. The company rotates bulls so that a different bull is used each day, but the technician can choose from a previous day's bull to avoid an in-bred mating (and they carry frozen straws for back-up as well). I've seen the boxes they pack them in - they have nine drawers, three days each of Holstein-Friesian, Jersey and Crossbred.
The farmer only drafts his on-heat cows and specifies what breed he wants them mated to.
I think LLL straws have only a third of the semen in them that a frozen straw does. Don't think there's any difference in conception rate between the two - I was told at AI course to only thaw as much semen as I could use within twenty minutes. Five hours sounds exceptional.
Probably doesn't make much more sense but I think LIC have an explanation as well if I can find the link.
regolith
Well-known member
http://www.lic.co.nz/lic_Premier_Sires.cfm (about the Premier Sires teams)
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&so ... Z&aq=f&oq=
http://www.side.org.nz/IM_Custom/Conten ... 20vish.pdf This one is a pdf file - if I read it slowly I might understand it, but it does indicate the role of LLL semen in the NZ dairy industry.
The key really is that almost all NZ dairy farmers are wanting to utilise the same bulls in a short space of time - that's what makes liquid semen worthwhile. Apparently it's much faster to use too - I'm not the only farmer who's discovered the only acceptable way of choosing what bulls to use is to train up and do it yourself, because the technicians hate fiddling around with frozen semen.
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&so ... Z&aq=f&oq=
http://www.side.org.nz/IM_Custom/Conten ... 20vish.pdf This one is a pdf file - if I read it slowly I might understand it, but it does indicate the role of LLL semen in the NZ dairy industry.
The key really is that almost all NZ dairy farmers are wanting to utilise the same bulls in a short space of time - that's what makes liquid semen worthwhile. Apparently it's much faster to use too - I'm not the only farmer who's discovered the only acceptable way of choosing what bulls to use is to train up and do it yourself, because the technicians hate fiddling around with frozen semen.
AudieWyoming
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Very interesting regolith-sounds like something half a world away. ;-)
novaman
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I have to say I wouldn't be willing to let someone else decide what bull my cows are bred to. I wouldn't want to be stuck breeding similiar to what the neighbors are doing. I don't have a problem with the neighbors, but whether anyone wants to admit it or not, we are basically in competition with each other to breed and raise better animals. If I do a better job I get a bigger piece of the pie. This is a big driving force for me to strive at constant improvement.regolith":m08to2j7 said:
regolith
Well-known member
I've milked several groups of heifers by Premier Sires teams. Pulled lots of calves sired by them as well.
I wouldn't be doing it either. This year I had the two groups running side by side - my first group of heifers from nominated matings, plus some Premier sires heifers. Out of five Premier Sires heifers from my own herd, I think I got two good ones. In the rest of the line - maybe two to three low producers and all of those from low production cows.
Some of the bought-in heifers are better not mentioned !
The big problem I have with this system is that the whole of NZ genetics is restricted by the genetic progress of this one company, and the direction they decide to progress. Don't ask me why they use bulls with lethal genes, high calving difficulty, atrocious temperament, poor udders - randomly across the nation's cows.
I wouldn't be doing it either. This year I had the two groups running side by side - my first group of heifers from nominated matings, plus some Premier sires heifers. Out of five Premier Sires heifers from my own herd, I think I got two good ones. In the rest of the line - maybe two to three low producers and all of those from low production cows.
Some of the bought-in heifers are better not mentioned !
The big problem I have with this system is that the whole of NZ genetics is restricted by the genetic progress of this one company, and the direction they decide to progress. Don't ask me why they use bulls with lethal genes, high calving difficulty, atrocious temperament, poor udders - randomly across the nation's cows.
Cormac
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I bought 5 heifer straws of Mytty in Focus. Those straws bred 4 cows, 3 being heifers. Appears 1 for 3 with Predestined so far.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
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This is SO TRUE!!! well said!
novaman
Well-known member
Could you explain further what you mean by 2 straws per AI?calbeef":7fxquf13 said:
What I mean is this, my vet has continually inserted 2 straws per AI with sexed semen. My conception rate dropped with 1 straw on sexed, which is money, better to spend 2 straws at a time that a vet at your place 2 times and a missing a cycle.
