School me on over seeding pasture

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KY 31 contains an endophyte (which is a fungus, but don't let that bother you). This endophyte is what makes it hard on cattle and sheep, but it is also the reason that tall fescue makes such a great winter grazing forage. KY31 is extremely persistent and aggressive and will eventually return to any pasture it has been 'eliminated' from. I'm glad you used the term 'novel' as that tells me you are already familiar with some endophyte alternative tall fescues. The novel fescues you are referring to are more than likely the same tall fescue species as the KY 31. The difference is the endophyte. The endophyte in the KY 31 is the 'hot' endophyte that has toxicity effects on the cows and sheep. The novel tall fescues you speak of have had the hot endophyte removed and replaced with an alternative endophyte that does not have the toxic effects of the KY 31. But, the alternative endophyte has most of the advantages that the 'hot' endophyte has. Specifically, allows the tall fescue plant to withstand heavy, even abusive, grazing practices as well as make the tall fescue an excellent grass to graze in the winter. New novel endophytes are being introduced all the time now that don't have the toxicity of the KY 31. The novels have great benefits like the KY 31, but the benefits don't quite reach the level of the KY 31, hence trying to improve the novels. In my book, the novels are better than the KY 31 hands down.

The KY 31 is more aggressive and will eventually encroach back into the stand of the novel you plant. The best approach to establish a novel variety is to begin by eliminating as much of the KY 31 as possible, and the seed bank. The best approach to this that I have been informed on is a technique referred to as 'spray, smother, spray'. It takes a year to accomplish, but I know of producers that are pleased with the results and have novel stands that have persisted for over 10 years, and longer, when they have done this.

I'm not sure if livestock develop a resistance to the hot endophyte, although they may. My understanding of that is that the extent of the problems the hot endophyte can cause will vary from year to tear and season to season.
You can't feed pregnant mares fescue grass or hay, but in 60 something years, this is the first I have heard of fescue being toxic to cows. 95% of all cattle in Ga, from Macon and north, eat fescue their entire lives.
 
Just a side note on the rotational grazing. I run 50 pairs on rotational grazing. I have 12 paddocks varying in size.....70 acres of paddocks. In lush spring, they will get the whole paddock for a day, next couple for maybe 2 days. By the time I get back to paddock 1, I cross fence it, letting them have the front half for maybe 2 days, then pull the divider fence and they get the back half (whole paddock) for 2 days.
Never let them eat on the same piece of ground for over 7 days at a time and let it rest for 30 - 40 days after early lush spring growth. First grazing may go thru the 12 paddocks in 3 weeks, but it does not hurt it because it is growing so fast.
 
You can't feed pregnant mares fescue grass or hay, but in 60 something years, this is the first I have heard of fescue being toxic to cows. 95% of all cattle in Ga, from Macon and north, eat fescue their entire lives.
There appear to be varying levels of the toxin found in fescue. There are years where its "hotter" than others, areas where its hotter etc. This is a great resource https://extension.missouri.edu/publications/g4669

Georgia must have fescue adapted cattle. Its hard to find cows that tolerate it here in VA. Might be onto something ...
 
You can't feed pregnant mares fescue grass or hay, but in 60 something years, this is the first I have heard of fescue being toxic to cows. 95% of all cattle in Ga, from Macon and north, eat fescue their entire lives.
That doesn't mean its not toxic to them..i have some cows it doesn't bother as much and some it hurts bad..
 
Probably easier and cheaper to cull cattle that aren't adapted then to try to kill out your entire pastures and reseed it with something that will likely be overtaken again by K31.
 
Probably easier and cheaper to cull cattle that aren't adapted then to try to kill out your entire pastures and reseed it with something that will likely be overtaken again by K31.
I totally agree. Use the cows that adapt and use the forage that comes naturally. Cows do great on crabgrass once fescue goes dormant in the summer.
But then fescue makes great stockpile for the winter.
 
What state can you buy it in?

Any other summer options? At this point I'm just trying to dilute with clovers.
Hi Dave,
Johnson grass is rather interesting in it's acceptance. Here in Ohio it is considered undesirable, a weed, and invasive. However, in Texas I believe (and someone from Texas please correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologize in advance) it is considered a viable, desirable forage and is cultivated. I don't have a clue about seed availability or legality anywhere though. Johnson grass isn't the only grass that falls on both ends of the spectrum as a sought after desirable on one hand and an invasive pest on the other. Reed Canary Grass also has this distinctive honor, but that isn't answering your question.

You asked about summer options and you also said you are just trying to dilute with clovers at this point. In a prior post you mentioned I believe annual WSG that you had tried. I couldn't piece together anything else you were saying so I'm a bit lost on what you are referring to in a couple instances. You said "dilute with clovers". I'm not sure what you are diluting, but an addition of clover to KY 31 tall fescue is often made to dilute the fescue toxicosis that is frequently a problem in summer months. An alternative is to replace the KY 31 tall fescue with a tall fescue (same species) that contains a novel endophyte instead of the endophyte found in the KY 31. Check out my other posts on this thread for more information on tall fescue and endophyte alternatives.

Other summer options are brown midrib sorghum sudan grass, an annual WSG that requires replanting every year but is a very high volume producer. You might have meant this grass in your prior post. There are MANY varieties to choose from here. Another summer annual WSG that you may consider is red river crabgrass. It can be interseeded with tall fescue and this combination is one of the very few SUCCESSFUL, PERSISTENT combinations of WSG and CSG grown within the same pasture (this works in SE Ohio, but I suspect results MAY be different in other parts of the US, although it MAY work where you are). I did say annual, but the red river crabgrass voluntarily reseeds itself pretty well here and may just need 'top dressed' once every 3-4 years here. Other summer options include a whole host of perennial WSG that typically take 2-3 years to establish and are typically thought of as incompatible with CSGs and are considered to only be a viable option when grown in a seperate pasture. Personally, I think there are some WSG and CSG species that can be grown together within the same field based on what I know about the biology of the individual plant species, but I have never heard of anyone trying the species together that I think may work so I can't make those recommendations to someone that is depending on a reasonable chance of success, because I don't know if it will work at all. I am working on getting those answers though.

Specifically, what is your objective you are trying to achieve with your request for 'summer options'? Produce hay, produce a large volume of grazable forage in a small area for a short period of time, produce grazable forage over an extended summer/fall season (more ground required) or plant/interseed something that will produce during the summer into an existing CSG stand (and presumably still have the CSG stand once the summer crop is done)?
 
You can't feed pregnant mares fescue grass or hay, but in 60 something years, this is the first I have heard of fescue being toxic to cows. 95% of all cattle in Ga, from Macon and north, eat fescue their entire lives.
It's a matter of degree of the toxicity effect of KY 31 on cattle. In most cases, where there is even an effect, it is very slight with cattle spending an excessive amount of time standing in streams and ponds, running a slight fever, and maybe not eating quite as much as they could or should. These are the only effects I have ever personally witnessed. There are/have been cases (extreme) where cattle have failed to gain any weight throughout the whole summer season and actually lost weight and there have also been cases of 'fescue foot' where the cows entire hoof becomes red, inflamed, hot to the touch and can even slough off. I've seen text book cases of this, never personal experience. I considered being a veterinarian in a prior 'life'. I saw and read a lot of stuff that would curl your toenails. Fescue toxicosis tends to be more prevalent in certain areas vs other areas as well, so its possible for areas that have "always" had KY 31 tall fescue present to have never had a single report or suspected case of fescue toxicosis.
 
Hi Dave,
Johnson grass is rather interesting in it's acceptance. Here in Ohio it is considered undesirable, a weed, and invasive. However, in Texas I believe (and someone from Texas please correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologize in advance) it is considered a viable, desirable forage and is cultivated. I don't have a clue about seed availability or legality anywhere though. Johnson grass isn't the only grass that falls on both ends of the spectrum as a sought after desirable on one hand and an invasive pest on the other. Reed Canary Grass also has this distinctive honor, but that isn't answering your question.
When I first got on CT, I was shocked beyond belief at posts talking about actually PLANTING Johnson grass and crabgrass!! For the last 50 years, I have fought a long and costly battle keeping these out of my bermuda hay fields.
 
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When I first got on CT, I was shocked beyond belief at posts talking about actually PLANTING Johnson grass and crabgrass!! For the last 50 years, I have fought a long and cost;y battle keeping these out of my bermuda hay fields.
I know exactly what you mean. When I make a suggestion of planting RCG to my colleges at the north end of Ohio, their reaction is about the equivalent of them looking at me like I just grew a third eye out of my forehead. I then get to explain myself, which fortunately, I'm usually successful, but they still don't want the RCG for some reason.
 
I reckon I have seen 100's of thousands of cattle that graze fescue in my life, and have never seen nor heard tell of, a cow's foot falling off because they ate it. That is usually caused by rotten trailer floors.
1685621622429.pngI'm glad you have never experienced it and hope that you never do, but there are those who have had this unfortunate experience.
 
View attachment 30790I'm glad you have never experienced it and hope that you never do, but there are those who have had this unfortunate experience.
My cattle would have zero tolerance for it I suppose. One year we bought a bunch of tall fescue straw because we were short of hay. I can say with some authority that it is in fact an unfortunate experience.
 
My cattle would have zero tolerance for it I suppose. One year we bought a bunch of tall fescue straw because we were short of hay. I can say with some authority that it is in fact an unfortunate experience.
Sorry to hear that. I hope you were able to reverse the negative effects without any irreversible damage. The toxicity of the fescue varies based on its origin/location of harvest, time of year of harvest, and varies from year to year. It's likely you just had the unfortunate experience of purchasing an extremely 'hot' cutting of KY 31. The endophyte within the fescue (the toxicity isn't even the plant itself) has the quirky ability to make tall fescue either one of the best forages for grazing or an absolute nightmare. The key is knowing and understanding the endophyte.
 
Sorry to hear that. I hope you were able to reverse the negative effects without any irreversible damage. The toxicity of the fescue varies based on its origin/location of harvest, time of year of harvest, and varies from year to year. It's likely you just had the unfortunate experience of purchasing an extremely 'hot' cutting of KY 31. The endophyte within the fescue (the toxicity isn't even the plant itself) has the quirky ability to make tall fescue either one of the best forages for grazing or an absolute nightmare. The key is knowing and understanding the endophyte.
I have general understanding of endophytes (now), but didnt back then. It was a quick education. I have never heard of KY31 grown this far north, but I suppose it's a possibility.
 
Endophyte toxin levels should drop off quickly in hay. If that's correct I'm surprised you had issues.

We graze cows and buy hay. So the less hay we buy the more profitable. A lot of grazers in the fescue belt end up moving to fall calving so that they aren't breeding after eating seed heads. My spring calving cows that couldn't handle fescue now are fall calvers.

One more point - the bottom 3 inches of fescue contains higher toxin levels than seed heads. So keeping grass long pays off.
 

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