School me on over seeding pasture

[Brute 23]

Hey guys. Sorry for such a delays return. Full time job has been killing me along with these 2 kiddos…… just been very busy. I started clearing up the old fence rows on my grandfathers old place that I bought. Man what a mess. I bet since my grandfather sold and moved no one had done any fencing on it in 20+ years minus some patch work. So I'm slowly getting ready to start my perimeter fencing on what needs re-fenced. I'm trying to lay out in my mind how to lay out my lots for rotational grazing. My property set up isn't perfect. So with 2 different fields roughly 12 acres a piece how big would you put your lots? You've gotta have an ally for them to move from one lot to the next ect… I've gotta to redneck engineer my fence that crosses a dry creek 20ish' wide but floods if we get a lot of rain. My biggest concern is water. Worst come to worst is I run water hoses but man how will I keep this from freezeing in the winter? This whole system is new to me so I do have many questions

You might try getting a Google earth photo and starting another thread. It might get some more activity and suggestions.

 

[BlondeD]

I'm in the other corner of Tennessee.........been restoring/reseeding the pastures here for the last 4-5 years......can't re-plant all that needs to be.....steepness/erosion issues.....but have worked in "diluting" the infected fescue to acceptable levels. The guy I rented to prior had several cows that lost much of the tail hairs and a bit of lameness. Plus spending a lot of time standing in the pond.......which I drained and rebuilt....and fenced off!!!. I've used Southeast Agriseed out of Rome, GA as my primary seed source for several years now. I drilled into several areas I was renovating their Grass Maxx mix.....Martin 2 Protek novel fescue, Endurance, Olathe and Inavale orchardgrasses........it was super and I've worked at not letting it be overgrazed, as it was a hit with the momma cows this mid spring. I'm using several of their summer cover mixes also......Ray's Crazy mix beiing a good one. Browse through their site and don't be afraid to try a sack or two in spots where you can evaluate the results. I'll be using some Teff to overseed in a hilltop next spring.

 

[anewcomer]

Has anyone on this board planted a "novel" endophyte fescue over 4-5 years ago? Would you replant it today?

 

[anewcomer]

Mark Reynolds, thank you for your many contributions. As you have stated previously, the principles are the same everywhere, timing will vary considerably depending on location. 7 days in your country will be 3 days in Central Alabama. 30 days will be 20 here early. Rest periods will extend as you go through the growing season. But, your principles are sound. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

That guy is hit or miss. He is one of those that just seems like he hates his job

Sorry to hear that. That bothers me as I work for the NRCS. Let me know the state, county and Ideally the individual you are talking about (likely the District Conservationist) and I will see that you get the help that you need and will see that this concern gets addressed, or at least the concern gets raised with the people who can do something about it. In the meantime, if you have specifics, ask me. I can at least tell you what options are available to you through the NRCS and how we should be able to help you. Actual accomplishments for you.....I probably can't do much across state lines, but I'll get you the help.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Has anyone on this board planted a "novel" endophyte fescue over 4-5 years ago? Would you replant it today?

I can make a guess as to what you are trying to figure out. Are novel varieties worth it? The answer, as Jim Garrish says is, "it depends", and on so many different things. For starters, the novel variety itself. The endophyte is a different fungus within each variety and has varying degrees of effectiveness based on the variety. K31 is VERY aggressive and if it isn't virtually eliminated from the seed bank in the soil, it will displace any (most) novel endophyte varieties that I know of. Novel endophytes are relatively a new thing and new varieties are coming out on a regular basis with attempts to come up with improved varieties. That is what seed companies do and the industry demands. There in lies the problem though, most of these varieties haven't had the time yet to pass the "test of time". The idea and concept works. The question is, what do you have to do in order to make the idea and concept work, and there are multiple components to address.

 

[LocustDaleCattleCompany]

Has anyone on this board planted a "novel" endophyte fescue over 4-5 years ago? Would you replant it today?

I converted a row crop field into a hay field in front of my house about 6 years ago and used the Jesup MaxQ II novel fescue. From what I've seen so far I don't know if I would ever plant a novel again based on the production of the stand and cost of the seed. The MaxQ does not like the hotter dryer weather after late Spring and gets very rank during most of the summer and rebounds pretty late in the Fall. This field did provide me with an excellent cutting of crabgrass hay last summer as most of the MaxQ died out providing an excellent situation for the crabgrass to flourish.

Now one thing I've fought (hard lesson learned) the last 5-7 years is when I've taken a row crop field back to put into hay or pasture is the nutrient levels are pretty depleted; especially the potash. So that doesn't help a new stand of grass when you are having to get nutrient levels back up and establish a new stand of grass at the same time. I converted another 30 acres last Fall and the pastures look great but I went with a fescue, orchard grass, festulolium and clover mix. All this is my opinion based on my observation of course.

 

[dave_shelby]

I have drilled in BarOptima and MaxQ into former crop ground. The BarOptima is soft and more palatable so much so that cows will eat it into the ground. There is some KY31 in spots, and growing so don't expect the novel endophyte fescue to last that long. Just drilled in the MaxQ with some orchard grass and blue grass last year, so no comment yet.

I have some KY31, OG and BG pastures and have been frost seeding over the past two years to dilute with red and white clover and some chicory. I would like to see that rise to about 25-30%.

 

[dave_shelby]

Mark Reynolds, thank you for your many contributions.

Did not realize that we had someone from NRCS here. Glad to see. Our local NRCS guys here in VA are also top notch. I don't always agree with them (and they with eachother) but its great to have their services and they don't seem to mind when I question their logic.

 

[Ebenezer]

Has anyone on this board planted a "novel" endophyte fescue over 4-5 years ago? Would you replant it today?

Tried at least 3 of them. For the money spent, the thing that excelled was a couple of improved orchardgrass selections mixed in with them. I have not strong need to plant more of the friendly endophyte. I really like the OG. I ratcheted down on the other end and put more pressure on the cows to work on KY31. I still dilute with legumes and such but for the cows: do or die. And the sheep have morphed to be more suited as well.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Did not realize that we had someone from NRCS here. Glad to see. Our local NRCS guys here in VA are also top notch. I don't always agree with them (and they with eachother) but its great to have their services and they don't seem to mind when I question their logic.

Hi Dave. I certainly don't mind my logic being questioned. There are multiple reasons for this. First and foremost, I'm not the landowner. Whatever I say or recommend is getting applied to someone else's land or operation, not mine personally. The owner or renter of that property is the one that has to be comfortable with what is being done. Also, I'm human, I can and do make mistakes/can mis-speak/be wrong. I try to provide only factual information (science based) in what I say/do and leave my personal opinion at home so to speak, or if I give it, I'll explain that it is my opinion and there are other viable options. When an operator questions my logic, it shows that they are thinking and not just agreeing. It also shows that I may need to explain something to them a bit better/in a different way. anything and everything I do in terms of developing plans for a producer need to be accepted and viewed as the thing to do. If the producer/operator thinks otherwise, I'm wasting my breath as long term, what I'm doing will be disregarded.

 

[LocustDaleCattleCompany]

This is the pastures I seeded last Fall in the fescue, festulolium, orchard grass and clovers mix. Clover is doing very well; almost a little too well…



Weaned heifers are enjoying it!

 

[dave_shelby]

Gorgeous clover there!

What reel are you using?

I should have advertised this here, but I scored some pig tail posts off Amazon's prime day sale, 30 for $80. The insulation on my older posts are beginning to crack. I have been looking for a roll of plastic tube to replace with but for 2.67 a post, can't go wrong.

 

[LocustDaleCattleCompany]

Gorgeous clover there!

What reel are you using?

I should have advertised this here, but I scored some pig tail posts off Amazon's prime day sale, 30 for $80. The insulation on my older posts are beginning to crack. I have been looking for a roll of plastic tube to replace with but for 2.67 a post, can't go wrong.

Thank you! I have a slew of the Gallagher reels of all sizes.

 

[Cowman42]

Yes. A week tops I'd say. I'd do 4 days myself. Being wet as it is.

If grass is very short there, seed would get into soil contact no problem. Just a matter of using the right seed for broadcasting this time of year.

I was told oats would be a good one for late winter broadcasting here if soil is naked. Not sure myself, never tried them.

I tried oats like that once here in MI on bare ground when things were defrosting.....Got maybe one plant to grow per pound of seed. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Cowman42]

"Your soil is full of desired seed I bet. No herbicides or fertilize is needed going this route. It sorts itself out over the next few years."
I know who's videos you watch. Keep telling that and watch the weeds grow. That is terrible advice if you do not live in the make believe land of youtube and don't have a seed fairy to come and sprinkle seeds at night.

"Drilling does help get the roots lower faster, allowing quicker establishment and better footing. Ao you're chances of succes are likely better wirh the drill if you don't remove the animals. Just saying you'll get the best results completely removing the animals."
Seeding rates are always lower (less money especially on improved varieties) when you drill. With a NT drill you can plant on a slant or up and down the hill and not risk a washout.

I have had loads of luck unrolling hay on bare spots and wore out, plugged up ground. It seeds and fertilizes at the same time. Needs to be first cut though. Preferably some that got a little long and rank before cutting. Stuff that works on one place doesn't necessarily work in another. But just cuz it doesn't work for you don't mean That Fella on youtube is full of BS. Some of his ideas are terrible here on my place. But I just bought one of his unrollers because I knew a guy doing it a few counties over. It worked great for him. I spent 2 winters pushing 4x5' through the snow by hand to try it out. It worked so much better than replanting pastures. And it was cheaper than buying seed and fertilizer.

 

[Cowman42]

There appear to be varying levels of the toxin found in fescue. There are years where its "hotter" than others, areas where its hotter etc. This is a great resource https://extension.missouri.edu/publications/g4669

Georgia must have fescue adapted cattle. Its hard to find cows that tolerate it here in VA. Might be onto something ...

Herefords in GA and SC are well known to be tolerant of KY31. The Trask lines. I spent 4 years running power lines with GA Power and most of the pastures north of the fall line, Macon to Disgusta were KY31......And most of the cattle were red with faces. Most guys raising them didn't even call them Herefords.....Just "ole white face cows". That KY31 was lush and green all through the winter too. But there was never any other forage in those pastures. Just the KY31.

 

[Cowman42]

I know exactly what you mean. When I make a suggestion of planting RCG to my colleges at the north end of Ohio, their reaction is about the equivalent of them looking at me like I just grew a third eye out of my forehead. I then get to explain myself, which fortunately, I'm usually successful, but they still don't want the RCG for some reason.

I get a bunch of feral RCG in my flood plain fields after every flood year. Cows only eat the very tops when it is about 12" to 18" tall. Terrible feed. The "improved" stuff I have planted gets eaten to the dirt and killed off so often I have given up on it. I have a guy supply some of my hay. I offered to buy him the seed and all the hay off that field if he would add RCG and trefoil to his mix. I definitely got that third eye look. Literally couldn't pay him to plant it here in Mid/Northern MI

 

[dave_shelby]

That Fella on youtube is full of BS. Some of his ideas are terrible here on my place. But I just bought one of his unrollers because I knew a guy doing it a few counties over. It worked great for him. I spent 2 winters pushing 4x5' through the snow by hand to try it out. It worked so much better than replanting pastures. And it was cheaper than buying seed and fertilizer.

What about Greg is full of BS?

Id like a bale unrolled but can't get up the guts to spend 3400 when I can unroll with my old bale buggy, push it by hand and spread with a pitchfork.

 

[Cowman42]

What I was saying is that he isn't BS. Some of his ideas just don't work other places. It is the snow that kills me when unrolling. Those 800lb 4x5's don't roll real well in a foot of snow. It is like pushing them up a hill. Also takes forever. I end up pushing it 6 feet and have to take a break or take a heart attack. I don't even try to hand/push unroll bales when we get real snow. Just dump the whole bale and cut the wrap off and hope like hell I don't get the tractor stuck again. Tractor stuck = near death experience everytime. I am a one man band so I end up having to put the tractor in gear with the tire spinning.....then hook up the jerk strap to the truck or jeep and yank it out.....Then jump out and try to catch the tractor before it runs away on me or then gets stuck again. Not run over yet.....but close a few times. I figure that $3400 is gonna save a ton in hospital bills come february.