larryshoat
Well-known member
dgott":qzli3oe7 said:
Probably the next day, we'll keep our fingers crossed .
Larry
same calf still subject of pneumonia
- Thread starter dgott
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Probably the next day, we'll keep our fingers crossed .
Larry
larryshoat
Well-known member
I think you have both fought this thing as hard as you could and I respect that, sometimes it just is too much of an up hill fight .
Larry
Larry
If the problem has cropped up this quickly it hasn;t been hit hard enough long enough. Problem is that you've used about every tool available as much as possible. That only leaves one tool left in the arsenal.
Well Sunday after I made my update I waited 2hours and took her another 1/2 bottle of milk and she took it. Today Monday she has taken all of her milk and her temp was back down to 102.2. I let her out of her pen today and she stood for a long time. She is back in her clean pen and had her milk. I will keep you posted.
http://s634.photobucket.com/albums/uu64/dgott_photos/ I dont know if this will work I uploaded a picture I just took of Ruby to photo bucket. She is up eating hay, her breathing is still labored. I also have a vet coming in the morning I will let you know what she says. Her temp is 102.6
I had one last year that was sick with fever and on again off again for 5 weeks...he made it, and doing fine..I did draxin, baytril..then as a last resort 2 penicillin shots & banamine shots..I think the baytril was what brought him through. Hope she makes it, sounds like she is a fighter.
larryshoat
Well-known member
I see from the photo that she has had an ear infection, I can see that she doesn't hold her head straight and I remember you talking about her not being able to drink from a bottle . These are difficult to clear up and it takes a long time .
Larry
Larry
Here you go.
She does not look so good. She has sick eyes. Am wondering what your vet will suggest.
Thank you for keeping us updated. Keep in mind now that I see her, that even though it is good to fight for them, sometimes there are things worse than dying, you know? Maybe discuss with your vet long term issues and short term prognosis.
The Vet said she would not put her down yet. She thinks the grinding of teeth is due to a deformity and slight paralysis on the left side of her mouth. In the picture you can see her head is tilted, it is that way all the time. Ruby belched and then started moving her teeth like chewing cud so she thinks the sound (like a grinding sound) is where her mouth is not straight. The neurological damage could be from the long term viral infection, not really sure. She pressed on her in several places around her stomach and she did not think Ruby is in pain. We will not do anymore antibotics only Panacur to rule out lung worms, lasix to help dry out her lungs but she said her lungs did not sound that bad. I will continue brobios. Her temp was 101 with the vet's thermometer. Also took a stool sample to check for coccidiosis just in case. Thanks for all your help again. Now we will wait and see. If her temp does go real high again or she stops eating we will put her down, I dont want her to suffer and Angie you are right there are worse things than death. I am glad to have a vet see her that was worth a lot to me. Larry the vet also said her ears had been frostbitten, but she really didnt say anything about her brown teeth. Thank to you all
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
I have been following all three threads on this calf. I admire your tenacity on trying to get this calf better.
I have a few questions
- did this vet do a bvd test on this calf?
-did the vet test for IBR?
-is this vet a large animal vet? sorry had to ask
-is this a hobby or maybe better a side line for you? Are you the type of person who does not care how much it costs to treat a calf? I do not wish to offend you with this question. Some people will do anything to try and save a calf, money is not in the equasion. Others however look at the cost factor in making business choices.
I guess what i am trying to ascertain is do you want to make money on purchased calves or are you in it for the "just the joy" of doing it? Is it part of your livelihood?
My gut says this calf is PI, no two ways about it. As well, in my many calf/cow years of experience, animals grind teeth when they are in pain. And this is not a good sign. It suggests that the time has come to use the lead cure. I know you have tried hard, but now the animal is suffering. Teeth discoloration is but a sign of damage occurred probably from the the large amounts of various drugs in the last several weeks. When a calf does the "better for a few days and then relapses" consecutively is is a sign as well.
Your vet suggesting to give it more time, might just be saying what you want to hear. Some times they do that because they know the owner is not yet ready to hear "it's time".
Now after you decide how you are going to continue with this calf, I would like you to continue learning something important. I would like you to do something for me.
I would like you to add up the total cost of this calf
If you used 1/2 a bag of replacer, add that in
If you used 12 needles and syringes add that in especially if they were the use once or twice kind
Add in the cost of all drugs....what you paid for and what you used on this calf; figure out the cost per cc and add it up.
Add in the cost of the electrolyes
probios
vitamin shots
cost of the calf to purchase.
do not forget the hay, straw, or hydro (power) for heat lamps
vet fees
This is an important step for you, if you have not done it already. It will give you an idea of what you spent...how much this calf has cost to this point. It will also guide you in your next calf purchase. Will you buy from the same farmer or auction barn? Will you go farmer direct and buy a calf? Will you spend this much again in keeping a calf alive? Will you establish boundaries in assessing what is necessary treatment and what has gone too far? This is an important learning tool.
I will admit, our farm is our livelihood. We are in it to put food on the table and pay our bills, and hopefully have a few bucks left over for some fun. In our first few years, we spent money when we had a sick animal. We did everything possible to try and save a calf, cow or bull. Then one day we did the math. Well i should say i did the math on a bull that would not get better. In the end it cost us more to recoup the bull than shipping to the slaughter and buying a new one. Then we did it again with a calf that had just calved, and again with a cow. I have to say we were not the brightest apples in the cart. It took a few times before we realized we were spending way to much to save an animal. The fact was more drove home when a drought hit and we bought straw to feed, lost a few good cows, and destroyed our tight breeding season and had poor calves for a couple of years. It cost us big time and took a few years to rebuild from it.
But i will say we learned our lesson. (took a few years though). We set limits for treating animals. After that, the lead cure or they were on their own to get better.
You now need to decide what you are going to take away from this experience.
Good luck
RR
I have a few questions
- did this vet do a bvd test on this calf?
-did the vet test for IBR?
-is this vet a large animal vet? sorry had to ask
-is this a hobby or maybe better a side line for you? Are you the type of person who does not care how much it costs to treat a calf? I do not wish to offend you with this question. Some people will do anything to try and save a calf, money is not in the equasion. Others however look at the cost factor in making business choices.
I guess what i am trying to ascertain is do you want to make money on purchased calves or are you in it for the "just the joy" of doing it? Is it part of your livelihood?
My gut says this calf is PI, no two ways about it. As well, in my many calf/cow years of experience, animals grind teeth when they are in pain. And this is not a good sign. It suggests that the time has come to use the lead cure. I know you have tried hard, but now the animal is suffering. Teeth discoloration is but a sign of damage occurred probably from the the large amounts of various drugs in the last several weeks. When a calf does the "better for a few days and then relapses" consecutively is is a sign as well.
Your vet suggesting to give it more time, might just be saying what you want to hear. Some times they do that because they know the owner is not yet ready to hear "it's time".
Now after you decide how you are going to continue with this calf, I would like you to continue learning something important. I would like you to do something for me.
I would like you to add up the total cost of this calf
If you used 1/2 a bag of replacer, add that in
If you used 12 needles and syringes add that in especially if they were the use once or twice kind
Add in the cost of all drugs....what you paid for and what you used on this calf; figure out the cost per cc and add it up.
Add in the cost of the electrolyes
probios
vitamin shots
cost of the calf to purchase.
do not forget the hay, straw, or hydro (power) for heat lamps
vet fees
This is an important step for you, if you have not done it already. It will give you an idea of what you spent...how much this calf has cost to this point. It will also guide you in your next calf purchase. Will you buy from the same farmer or auction barn? Will you go farmer direct and buy a calf? Will you spend this much again in keeping a calf alive? Will you establish boundaries in assessing what is necessary treatment and what has gone too far? This is an important learning tool.
I will admit, our farm is our livelihood. We are in it to put food on the table and pay our bills, and hopefully have a few bucks left over for some fun. In our first few years, we spent money when we had a sick animal. We did everything possible to try and save a calf, cow or bull. Then one day we did the math. Well i should say i did the math on a bull that would not get better. In the end it cost us more to recoup the bull than shipping to the slaughter and buying a new one. Then we did it again with a calf that had just calved, and again with a cow. I have to say we were not the brightest apples in the cart. It took a few times before we realized we were spending way to much to save an animal. The fact was more drove home when a drought hit and we bought straw to feed, lost a few good cows, and destroyed our tight breeding season and had poor calves for a couple of years. It cost us big time and took a few years to rebuild from it.
But i will say we learned our lesson. (took a few years though). We set limits for treating animals. After that, the lead cure or they were on their own to get better.
You now need to decide what you are going to take away from this experience.
Good luck
RR
larryshoat
Well-known member
dgott":13bzdj84 said:
I didn't make myself clear, the infection is inside the ear and causes the head tilt and drooping ear .The poular theory is that these are caused by a mycoplasm . At the first sign of a drooping ear it must be treated aggressively . In our calf program we have started giving Draxin on day 8, this has al but eliminated the problem .
Larry
Larry do you give draxxin for 8 days sorry I dont understand. I know what you are saying about the ear infection but I am not clear how much, how often, or im, sq or topical to give the draxxin? I know with la200 you can apply it and give it as a shot not sure about draxxin.
RR
I appreciate your questions, no the vet did not check for IBR or BVD. She does all sizes of animals, no she is no a cow specialist.
Yes it is a hobby and I am only doing it for enjoyment and to expose our foster children to these animals hoping to teach compassion and empathy. Sometimes wounded children can relate to helpless baby animals better than people. I have great respect and appreciation for people who do this for their income, to me that is a whole different ballgame.
I did the math or part of it, I still dont have the vet bill from yesterday but I bought this calf for 35 dollars and have spent almost 170. I would not buy a calf from a sale barn ever again! I had bought 3 calves from a trusted dairy farm that are doing great but my dh want a beef calf. I didnt think it was a good idea because I had read enough to know this could happen. I am always reading, and asking questions to learn, I am trying very hard to do this the best way I can but I will try and set better boundries with the extreme I will go to save one. I honestly wished we had stopped after the Baytril, Draxxin, and maybe NuFlor but it is very hard for me to put one down that is still eating on her own. She stopped for a short time and then started eating again. You maybe right about the PI. Thanks again for your questions there is a lot to be said for having to give an answer and it has helped me learn.
I appreciate your questions, no the vet did not check for IBR or BVD. She does all sizes of animals, no she is no a cow specialist.
Yes it is a hobby and I am only doing it for enjoyment and to expose our foster children to these animals hoping to teach compassion and empathy. Sometimes wounded children can relate to helpless baby animals better than people. I have great respect and appreciation for people who do this for their income, to me that is a whole different ballgame.
I did the math or part of it, I still dont have the vet bill from yesterday but I bought this calf for 35 dollars and have spent almost 170. I would not buy a calf from a sale barn ever again! I had bought 3 calves from a trusted dairy farm that are doing great but my dh want a beef calf. I didnt think it was a good idea because I had read enough to know this could happen. I am always reading, and asking questions to learn, I am trying very hard to do this the best way I can but I will try and set better boundries with the extreme I will go to save one. I honestly wished we had stopped after the Baytril, Draxxin, and maybe NuFlor but it is very hard for me to put one down that is still eating on her own. She stopped for a short time and then started eating again. You maybe right about the PI. Thanks again for your questions there is a lot to be said for having to give an answer and it has helped me learn.
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
Good for you.
Now i have another theroy sort of for you.
In the one thread you stated that if this animal made it; it would stay on the farm for a very long time.
I am not suggesting you spend more money on this calf, that is up to you. So i am going to draw on experience and what you have said to offer a suggestion. That suggestion would be...this calf spend as little time on your farm as humanly possible. If you sell it after it gets better, watch the withdrawal times. Please note that if this were my calf it would never be sold to some other unsuspecting buyer. And if i decided to keep it to butcher at a young age it would be so isolated that no other animal new it was there...not possible so I would...____________feel free to fill in the blank.
REASONS:
1. quite possibly this calf is either PI or it was exposed to the virus at some stage before you got the calf and is infected.
(a) senario 1 PI calf...
this calf will always be a poor doer. Will alway require some source of drug treatment at stages of it's life. This drug treatments will occur when the calf is stressed. Stressed by sudden weather changes or storms. Stressed by moving to a different pasture. Stressed by an aggressive or "bullying" animal, stresssed by weaning. Stressed by change in feed.
As well if this is a PI animal it will shed the virus at any time, more when stressed out of every openning in the body. Mouth, nose, eyes, pee-er, pooper. It will spread the disease everywhere, decreasing the threshold of resistance of the healthy animals (more on that in a bit) You will be compromising your other animal, and if you have breeding stock, you will be compromising your unborn animals.
(b) senario 2. This calf was exposed at the sale barn and the disease is manifesting itself now. Chances are it will die due to the stress on the body, and considering the poor health it is in. If it does not die soon, it more than likely will die in the feedlot or pasture. BUT not before infecting alot of other animals and your unborn animals. This animal if it does make it will always be a poor doer and a costly animal in feed and drugs to keep condition
Now on to the disease threshold thing:
Lets make some asumptions. Lets base these asumptions on a perfect world in the bovine world. Lets base this on you having cow calf pairs as well as a buyer of calves. I do not know if you breed and calve your own, but I will make the assumption you do. At the very least, you are a buyer of calves at a dangerous point in the immune stage (NO disrespect intended)
Assumptions:
1. All mothers of any calves were pre bred vaccinated properly without any degrading of any vaccine
2. All calves recieved timely colostrum, within the first two hours.
3. All calves were born in a stressfree enviroment. Stresses include, weather, dumping in a snow bank, hard pull, difficult calving, poor mothering etc.
Please keep in mind that all these stressses reduce the amount of IgG absorbed in passive transfer. As well if the vaccines were poorly administered that would reduce the protection of the unborn, as well as the amount of IgG in the colostrum.
So assume this new born calf ( named Jed) had 100% passive transfer and is ready and raring to go.
Now lets add in your surviving calf that remains on the farm to the senario.
Jed is out in the world wandering around with it's momma. It had 100% protection Lets give it 100 points of resistance to disease...the threshold
In comes a storm with snow or rain, a cold rain, it places stress on the threshold and loweres it by 5 points
Momma and calf are separated because of the storm, the calf does not get one meal due to hiding from the rain or snow threshold is lowered by 5 more points
2 other calves come down with a slight touch of scours, thanks to the weather, and a slight failure for 100% passive transfer. So they are shedding say rotovirus...increases the stress on the immune system, again lowers the threshold resistance by 20 points.
Your calf, the one you have just been treating like mad to save it'slife, has been shedding the virus all the time, reduce threshold by another 10 points
Your calf is under stress because of the weather, his pathogen level jumped and is now shedding more than normal reduce by 30 points.
All cows are carriers of the scour viruses at all times, the are affected by the weather and start shedding the virus at a higher than normal rate reduce threshold by another 5 points.
Jed is now down to 20 points of threshold resistance. That is all that stands between him and the disease your calf is shedding all year round. It is going to take a near three to four weeks before the immune system is back up to 100% because it has been taxed so much. Jed's immune system has been taxed to the point that he gets a slight touch of scours, then he gets a slight cough, then his temp rises, he now has no immunity to fight of BVD or IBR or anything else. He is fair game to any disease on your farm.
Is it worth it to keep this first calf who has been so sick? Remember Jed had 100% passive transfer (PT). What about the ones that did not? What about the ones that you buy, that you can not guarantee that the pre breeding vaccines went off without a hitch, or that they got 100% PT. What happens to the rest of your animals if you keep a PI or a sale barn infected animal on your farm?
I know the assumed senario is worst case, and that not all animals get sick, but...is that a risk you are willing to take?
Only you can judge that.
RR
Now i have another theroy sort of for you.
In the one thread you stated that if this animal made it; it would stay on the farm for a very long time.
I am not suggesting you spend more money on this calf, that is up to you. So i am going to draw on experience and what you have said to offer a suggestion. That suggestion would be...this calf spend as little time on your farm as humanly possible. If you sell it after it gets better, watch the withdrawal times. Please note that if this were my calf it would never be sold to some other unsuspecting buyer. And if i decided to keep it to butcher at a young age it would be so isolated that no other animal new it was there...not possible so I would...____________feel free to fill in the blank.
REASONS:
1. quite possibly this calf is either PI or it was exposed to the virus at some stage before you got the calf and is infected.
(a) senario 1 PI calf...
this calf will always be a poor doer. Will alway require some source of drug treatment at stages of it's life. This drug treatments will occur when the calf is stressed. Stressed by sudden weather changes or storms. Stressed by moving to a different pasture. Stressed by an aggressive or "bullying" animal, stresssed by weaning. Stressed by change in feed.
As well if this is a PI animal it will shed the virus at any time, more when stressed out of every openning in the body. Mouth, nose, eyes, pee-er, pooper. It will spread the disease everywhere, decreasing the threshold of resistance of the healthy animals (more on that in a bit) You will be compromising your other animal, and if you have breeding stock, you will be compromising your unborn animals.
(b) senario 2. This calf was exposed at the sale barn and the disease is manifesting itself now. Chances are it will die due to the stress on the body, and considering the poor health it is in. If it does not die soon, it more than likely will die in the feedlot or pasture. BUT not before infecting alot of other animals and your unborn animals. This animal if it does make it will always be a poor doer and a costly animal in feed and drugs to keep condition
Now on to the disease threshold thing:
Lets make some asumptions. Lets base these asumptions on a perfect world in the bovine world. Lets base this on you having cow calf pairs as well as a buyer of calves. I do not know if you breed and calve your own, but I will make the assumption you do. At the very least, you are a buyer of calves at a dangerous point in the immune stage (NO disrespect intended)
Assumptions:
1. All mothers of any calves were pre bred vaccinated properly without any degrading of any vaccine
2. All calves recieved timely colostrum, within the first two hours.
3. All calves were born in a stressfree enviroment. Stresses include, weather, dumping in a snow bank, hard pull, difficult calving, poor mothering etc.
Please keep in mind that all these stressses reduce the amount of IgG absorbed in passive transfer. As well if the vaccines were poorly administered that would reduce the protection of the unborn, as well as the amount of IgG in the colostrum.
So assume this new born calf ( named Jed) had 100% passive transfer and is ready and raring to go.
Now lets add in your surviving calf that remains on the farm to the senario.
Jed is out in the world wandering around with it's momma. It had 100% protection Lets give it 100 points of resistance to disease...the threshold
In comes a storm with snow or rain, a cold rain, it places stress on the threshold and loweres it by 5 points
Momma and calf are separated because of the storm, the calf does not get one meal due to hiding from the rain or snow threshold is lowered by 5 more points
2 other calves come down with a slight touch of scours, thanks to the weather, and a slight failure for 100% passive transfer. So they are shedding say rotovirus...increases the stress on the immune system, again lowers the threshold resistance by 20 points.
Your calf, the one you have just been treating like mad to save it'slife, has been shedding the virus all the time, reduce threshold by another 10 points
Your calf is under stress because of the weather, his pathogen level jumped and is now shedding more than normal reduce by 30 points.
All cows are carriers of the scour viruses at all times, the are affected by the weather and start shedding the virus at a higher than normal rate reduce threshold by another 5 points.
Jed is now down to 20 points of threshold resistance. That is all that stands between him and the disease your calf is shedding all year round. It is going to take a near three to four weeks before the immune system is back up to 100% because it has been taxed so much. Jed's immune system has been taxed to the point that he gets a slight touch of scours, then he gets a slight cough, then his temp rises, he now has no immunity to fight of BVD or IBR or anything else. He is fair game to any disease on your farm.
Is it worth it to keep this first calf who has been so sick? Remember Jed had 100% passive transfer (PT). What about the ones that did not? What about the ones that you buy, that you can not guarantee that the pre breeding vaccines went off without a hitch, or that they got 100% PT. What happens to the rest of your animals if you keep a PI or a sale barn infected animal on your farm?
I know the assumed senario is worst case, and that not all animals get sick, but...is that a risk you are willing to take?
Only you can judge that.
RR
MoGal
Well-known member
While I've not read your other threads, I do have a suggestion. H202 or Hydrogen peroxide. Last week I read several articles on "food grade" hydrogen peroxide. You can google it and come up with gobs of info. One place I read was http://www.earthclinic.com much of the info was for human use but animals would receive the benefits as well.
Supposedly colostrum is high in hydrogen peroxide (of course made naturally by the mother) but this is what gives or builds the immune system.
Please do your own research and come to your own conclusions, but you've spent a lot of time and money on your calf so far. But it might be worthwhile to add a tsp or two in her calf bottle. (I'm talking here about the store bought 3 % and NOT food grade. If you have food grade H202 on hand it would be a couple of drops)
Supposedly colostrum is high in hydrogen peroxide (of course made naturally by the mother) but this is what gives or builds the immune system.
Please do your own research and come to your own conclusions, but you've spent a lot of time and money on your calf so far. But it might be worthwhile to add a tsp or two in her calf bottle. (I'm talking here about the store bought 3 % and NOT food grade. If you have food grade H202 on hand it would be a couple of drops)
well my dh put her down today, she would not eat on her own for several days and when I would tube her, her left side would swell larger and larger everyday. I would release her bloat with a needle but it would come right back. I also tried mineral oil. She fought hard and suffered too long. I think I would let go a lot sooner next time. Thanks for all your help, I will be asking questions again I know I have a lot to learn. It has been a long day 
Workinonit Farm
Well-known member
Well, you did alot more for her than many of us would have. I'm sure you learned alot from this, I'm sure it was an educational experience. You did your best.
Katherine
Katherine
