Hi, have a question--So I have read and heard to rotate pastures when cows eat til 1/2 leaf height. Well it seems it doesn't matter at our place, the cows will eat grass down to ground no matter how ofter we change pastures. They naturally reach down to ground and graze sooo! The grass can be tall or shorter and they still eat it to the ground so how does that work? Its orchard and timothy, clover mix. It does grow back each time we rotate but takes longer. Yes it grows quicker when we fertilize but at todays prices, its going to be manuer this year. So does anyone really pull the cows off the field when grass is still tall or what exactly do you do? Just looking for ideas or suggestions. Is there a good average height you put the cow on the grass? We waited last year and they ate it but also layed on it and it folded over and then it was wasted. Just curious what everyone else does.
Rotational grazing- grass height
- Thread starter Roan
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novaman
Well-known member
For rotational grazing I wouldn't go by the grass height. A local researcher has used a twice over system that bases the paddock changes on the amount of AUM's in a given acreage over a set time. I could go into detail but I won't as I'm sure this isn't what you are looking at.
agmantoo
Well-known member
Roan
Early in the Spring the new forage is tender and desirable so yes the cattle will eat it to the ground. As the forage grows the cattle will start eating the more tender tops and forgoing the stems and the forage near the ground provided they are allocated enough area. At this time of year I do not have any real tall forage so I do keep the area to be grazed reduced to what i want the herd to have and let the balance of the paddocks grow. In another week to 10 days I should have more mature forages and then I will start grazing the tallest forage on the farm. I strictly stick to using the tallest forage (grasses and clover mix) to be grazed first. I remain with this practice until next Spring once I start. When I start this practice, I will then observe that the area allocated must be such that about 3 inches remains with the grass height. They are going to eat the clovers to the ground regardless. Eating the clover to the ground helps keep the clovers in check. Otherwise the clovers will choke the grasses so it really does not hurt anything. I am one of a few that use a variable size paddock allocation with the seasonal changes. I rotate daily. My paddocks only have two permanent single strand wires that are parallel to each other by approximately 300 feet. I use polywire in front and behind the herd. In peak growing periods I may be putting the entire herd on 6/10ths of an acre and at other on as much a 3 acres for a 24 hour period. I do not want to stress the cattle nor the forage. Here is a pic that is about 2 weeks old. The cattle are in an area with the two permanent single strand paddocks and are moving forward in an allocated area that is approximately 180 long every 24 hours. When they arrive at the far left of the pic I am sending some of the 5 weight heifers and steers to market.
Early in the Spring the new forage is tender and desirable so yes the cattle will eat it to the ground. As the forage grows the cattle will start eating the more tender tops and forgoing the stems and the forage near the ground provided they are allocated enough area. At this time of year I do not have any real tall forage so I do keep the area to be grazed reduced to what i want the herd to have and let the balance of the paddocks grow. In another week to 10 days I should have more mature forages and then I will start grazing the tallest forage on the farm. I strictly stick to using the tallest forage (grasses and clover mix) to be grazed first. I remain with this practice until next Spring once I start. When I start this practice, I will then observe that the area allocated must be such that about 3 inches remains with the grass height. They are going to eat the clovers to the ground regardless. Eating the clover to the ground helps keep the clovers in check. Otherwise the clovers will choke the grasses so it really does not hurt anything. I am one of a few that use a variable size paddock allocation with the seasonal changes. I rotate daily. My paddocks only have two permanent single strand wires that are parallel to each other by approximately 300 feet. I use polywire in front and behind the herd. In peak growing periods I may be putting the entire herd on 6/10ths of an acre and at other on as much a 3 acres for a 24 hour period. I do not want to stress the cattle nor the forage. Here is a pic that is about 2 weeks old. The cattle are in an area with the two permanent single strand paddocks and are moving forward in an allocated area that is approximately 180 long every 24 hours. When they arrive at the far left of the pic I am sending some of the 5 weight heifers and steers to market.
Thanks for the responses, Novaman could you explain what AUM's are ? I have no clue! Agmantoo, we do the same thing with the temp poly wires, we will block off sections at a time then move poly wire down to next section, Our grass does look like yours mostly when we move them off of it but then you get the clumps they dont eat d/t waste, well I was just wondering if there was anything else we could do but I guess not. Maybe we need to seed a different type of grass. Oh well thanks.
agmantoo
Well-known member
Roan
The cattle will not eat the grass growing in the manure piles when they return. To overcome this you will need to burst the piles after the cattle are moved off with some type of drag. I use an old worn out drag harrow. I have other harrows but they do not work as well. By distributing the manure your pastures will be more uniform in growth and the manure will not be forming the little green piles that the cattle will not eat. I also think it reduces the opportunity for parasites to flourish. The life cycle of the parasites will get broken with good rotational grazing.
The cattle will not eat the grass growing in the manure piles when they return. To overcome this you will need to burst the piles after the cattle are moved off with some type of drag. I use an old worn out drag harrow. I have other harrows but they do not work as well. By distributing the manure your pastures will be more uniform in growth and the manure will not be forming the little green piles that the cattle will not eat. I also think it reduces the opportunity for parasites to flourish. The life cycle of the parasites will get broken with good rotational grazing.
pdfangus
Well-known member
agmantoo,
what is your target rest period between grazings of a particular spot on the ground?
what is your target rest period between grazings of a particular spot on the ground?
pdfangus
Well-known member
roan,
AU is animal units and I believe AUM is animal units per month.
generally an animal unit is 1000 lbs of animal so a 1200 lb cow would be 1.2 au and as such she would have a calculable forage demand in animal units per month.
I will try to figure a way to post an animal unit worksheet on my website so that you can look at it and calculate forage animal unit production and animal unit demand.
AU is animal units and I believe AUM is animal units per month.
generally an animal unit is 1000 lbs of animal so a 1200 lb cow would be 1.2 au and as such she would have a calculable forage demand in animal units per month.
I will try to figure a way to post an animal unit worksheet on my website so that you can look at it and calculate forage animal unit production and animal unit demand.
pdfangus
Well-known member
roan,
I went to pull up a forage demand and supply workseet and realized that it is very much tailored to our locality so would do you relatively little good.
the thing to do would be to contact your local soil and water conservation district or your local NRCS office and ask them for one made for your area. they will probably even work it up for you. If you came to my office I would do one for you. Just did one for a guy last week. he does not want to intensify his managment which is the usual objection around here. Guys want to look at the cows once a week wether they need to or not. then they like to fuss about having to buy hay because they are overstocked for their management.
the one I have is a simple excel spreadsheet and so i can play with changes in forage or managment to see how it will affect my results before making the changes.
if the local SWCD folks or the NRCS folks can not help you ask them for contact information for the forage agronomist. Your land Grant university also may have some simple software. put your taxes to work.
I just finished paying mine and weeee doggies did they ever go up this year. Particulary enjoyed getting to send back exactly the same amount of stimulus money they needed to send me last spring. it was 100% taxable. I did mine on the computer and a little block showed my tax obligation or refund and when I keyed in the stimulus amount my taxes due increased by exactly that amount. Taxes due increase about 250% this year on the same income parameters. The stimulus amount was over half of the increase in taxes due.
I went to pull up a forage demand and supply workseet and realized that it is very much tailored to our locality so would do you relatively little good.
the thing to do would be to contact your local soil and water conservation district or your local NRCS office and ask them for one made for your area. they will probably even work it up for you. If you came to my office I would do one for you. Just did one for a guy last week. he does not want to intensify his managment which is the usual objection around here. Guys want to look at the cows once a week wether they need to or not. then they like to fuss about having to buy hay because they are overstocked for their management.
the one I have is a simple excel spreadsheet and so i can play with changes in forage or managment to see how it will affect my results before making the changes.
if the local SWCD folks or the NRCS folks can not help you ask them for contact information for the forage agronomist. Your land Grant university also may have some simple software. put your taxes to work.
I just finished paying mine and weeee doggies did they ever go up this year. Particulary enjoyed getting to send back exactly the same amount of stimulus money they needed to send me last spring. it was 100% taxable. I did mine on the computer and a little block showed my tax obligation or refund and when I keyed in the stimulus amount my taxes due increased by exactly that amount. Taxes due increase about 250% this year on the same income parameters. The stimulus amount was over half of the increase in taxes due.
novaman
Well-known member
Yup, what pdfangus said. They have done research and determined the stocking rates for various soils, climate types, etc. All you should have to do is find that info and plug in your numbers. This is a far better method (assuming you find some stocking rates that work for your area) than looking at the grass height and guessing when you should move.
Have you managed to eliminate 2ft tall grass clumps bordered by 1inch tall grass?agmantoo":2ame18nt said:
Sure would like to see a picture of your drag going over a manure pile so I know what the performance standard is.
Thanks,
If you had to buy a drag tomorrow what kind would you get?
agmantoo
Well-known member
pdfangus
I do not have a targeted rest period for any specific paddock. I do not have irrigation and all of my paddocks do not produce equally. I have to use cattle behavior and my experience to determine how much area to allocate. I tell folks to look at the area they are going to graze and at the height and content, grass and clovers, of the area. Then based on what they see to estimate how much they think that the cattle will consumer in 45 minutes and then allocate that amount. Stay around the cattle and observe what is occurring in that 45 minutes. If too little area was allocated, then give some more area until they have consumed down to where you want the grass height to be. If too great of a area was allocated then shrink the area at the 45 minute end to what you think they should have consumed. Now, walk the area off to get the footage and DOUBLE the area. This will the the amount of area to be allocated for a 24 hour period. After the 24 hour period is later consumed, then allocate another area and observe how the cattle behave as you move them. They should not be bawling nor crowding the fence to get to the area. A brisk walk is OK as they like to try out new places. Both yourself and the cattle will soon become conditioned to the move and the amount made available. If as Spring progresses and you get more forage than they can consume you can be wasteful or you can bushhog the the surplus and return the forage to the ground as nutrient. As we usually get hit with some summer drought, I will start to stockpile the surplus for feeding in the dry July/August dry time period.
I do not have a targeted rest period for any specific paddock. I do not have irrigation and all of my paddocks do not produce equally. I have to use cattle behavior and my experience to determine how much area to allocate. I tell folks to look at the area they are going to graze and at the height and content, grass and clovers, of the area. Then based on what they see to estimate how much they think that the cattle will consumer in 45 minutes and then allocate that amount. Stay around the cattle and observe what is occurring in that 45 minutes. If too little area was allocated, then give some more area until they have consumed down to where you want the grass height to be. If too great of a area was allocated then shrink the area at the 45 minute end to what you think they should have consumed. Now, walk the area off to get the footage and DOUBLE the area. This will the the amount of area to be allocated for a 24 hour period. After the 24 hour period is later consumed, then allocate another area and observe how the cattle behave as you move them. They should not be bawling nor crowding the fence to get to the area. A brisk walk is OK as they like to try out new places. Both yourself and the cattle will soon become conditioned to the move and the amount made available. If as Spring progresses and you get more forage than they can consume you can be wasteful or you can bushhog the the surplus and return the forage to the ground as nutrient. As we usually get hit with some summer drought, I will start to stockpile the surplus for feeding in the dry July/August dry time period.
agmantoo
Well-known member
shaz
I do not have tall clumps as you mentioned growing beside short grass. I have a bushhog and I mow the tall stuff before it goes to seed and I limit the cattle to the allocated areas to where they eat the forage rather uniformly. This mowing and keeping the forage thick is what limits the weed growth. Mowing stops seed production and brush and thick stands smoother undesirable plants. Folks keep mentioning the fuel consumption. I only use about 20% of the fuel I was using when I made hay. I no longer own a round baler, tedder, haybine and the rake and tractor with the frontend loader is for sale. As for time consumption. I spend about 20 minutes when I go to make a quick move on the cattle between paddocks. I multitask frequently when using the tractor. I carry the seed slinger on the 3 point arms as I am pulling the drag harrow on the drawbar. I can do 4 acres/hour. I can bushhog and pull the drag harrow at about 2 1/2 acres per hour. I never have to use the tractor during the Winter. I do use a ATV as I have a permanently injured foot. My margin from my herd is significantly higher than the average profit from a conventional producer. I figure than I can justify the time I spend based on the return.
I do not have tall clumps as you mentioned growing beside short grass. I have a bushhog and I mow the tall stuff before it goes to seed and I limit the cattle to the allocated areas to where they eat the forage rather uniformly. This mowing and keeping the forage thick is what limits the weed growth. Mowing stops seed production and brush and thick stands smoother undesirable plants. Folks keep mentioning the fuel consumption. I only use about 20% of the fuel I was using when I made hay. I no longer own a round baler, tedder, haybine and the rake and tractor with the frontend loader is for sale. As for time consumption. I spend about 20 minutes when I go to make a quick move on the cattle between paddocks. I multitask frequently when using the tractor. I carry the seed slinger on the 3 point arms as I am pulling the drag harrow on the drawbar. I can do 4 acres/hour. I can bushhog and pull the drag harrow at about 2 1/2 acres per hour. I never have to use the tractor during the Winter. I do use a ATV as I have a permanently injured foot. My margin from my herd is significantly higher than the average profit from a conventional producer. I figure than I can justify the time I spend based on the return.
agmantoo
Well-known member
dun
The manure from the cattle can be very loose. However, I want that loose manure spread as much as possible because my cattle will not eat out of the splatter pile when they are returned to the paddock. In the Fall when I start stockpiling forage I have to move the cattle over a much reduced in size area. If there is rain I can return sometimes within 12 to 14 days. Additionally as I am not buying commercial fertilizer I need to distribute what manure is there as uniformly as possible. It really does not take much time to do this and it also reduces places for flies to breed.
The manure from the cattle can be very loose. However, I want that loose manure spread as much as possible because my cattle will not eat out of the splatter pile when they are returned to the paddock. In the Fall when I start stockpiling forage I have to move the cattle over a much reduced in size area. If there is rain I can return sometimes within 12 to 14 days. Additionally as I am not buying commercial fertilizer I need to distribute what manure is there as uniformly as possible. It really does not take much time to do this and it also reduces places for flies to breed.
SRBeef
Well-known member
My beginner observations on grass height in rotational grazing systems:
I try to let my grass get to about 10" high before putting any cattle in the paddock.
I have watched them and they seem to go around the paddock taking about 3" off the top at a time. so they go around a paddock about twice and leave about 4" of grass left and a lot of manure piles. If I left them on longer they would go around again only leaving an inch or two and the grass would not regrow as well.
This 4" height is when I usually consider the paddock done and move them followed by dragging with a Wingfield 3-point drag.
In the early spring when the grass is growing fast all over I just let them go around once, leaving 6 or 7" of grass left and then move them more quickly. I don't want the grass to start heading out because it is not near as nutritious then. the goal is to keep it in the leafy vegetative stage.
I think the dragging helps enormously. I use a 3 point model as show here http://www.wingfields.com/chainharrow.htm
At anything over about 10" the grass starts sending our seed heads and then shutting down.
Rotations will be quicker in the spring than in the summer when the grass slows down. I try to let the grass grow at least 30 days between grazings however that will vary a lot depending on the rainfall and types of grass.
Good luck. jim
I try to let my grass get to about 10" high before putting any cattle in the paddock.
I have watched them and they seem to go around the paddock taking about 3" off the top at a time. so they go around a paddock about twice and leave about 4" of grass left and a lot of manure piles. If I left them on longer they would go around again only leaving an inch or two and the grass would not regrow as well.
This 4" height is when I usually consider the paddock done and move them followed by dragging with a Wingfield 3-point drag.
In the early spring when the grass is growing fast all over I just let them go around once, leaving 6 or 7" of grass left and then move them more quickly. I don't want the grass to start heading out because it is not near as nutritious then. the goal is to keep it in the leafy vegetative stage.
I think the dragging helps enormously. I use a 3 point model as show here http://www.wingfields.com/chainharrow.htm
At anything over about 10" the grass starts sending our seed heads and then shutting down.
Rotations will be quicker in the spring than in the summer when the grass slows down. I try to let the grass grow at least 30 days between grazings however that will vary a lot depending on the rainfall and types of grass.
Good luck. jim
preston39
Well-known member
======agmantoo":2b3csvmi said:
What kind of grass(es) make up your paddocks?
Are there different mixes in each paddock?
I figured it was animal units, didnt get the part about month, thanks. Well we rest our fields about 28 days between rotation. and yes draging the piles makes mud pies like dun said, and even after rains the cows still wont touch the grass. Very interesting comments.
agmantoo
Well-known member
If you are tearing up grass I understand your concern and reluctance to drag the manure. As I mentioned I have more that one drag harrow and the old worn one is the main harrow used. The angle adjustment is long passed working and actually I have removed the handles that were used to adjust the harrow so that I can get under the fences when I move to another paddock. The horizontal bars in the harrow are set to where the harrow teeth do not touch the ground. If you were to rotate the letter L 90 degrees clockwise and then pull the harrow right to left that is how the horizontal bars in the harrow are set. I do loose some clover leaves but the clover seems to always need suppressed to avoid it choking the grass. I rarely allow the cattle to back graze and that practice avoids a second day deposit/buildup of manure on grazed paddocks. Cattle avoid manure piles by smelling rather than visually IMO. With a good distribution of manure, the paddock seems to smell uniformly the same and when the cattle return they will eat the forage. My repeat grazing of a paddock is probably at longer intervals than those where the the cattle will not eat certain areas. In the following picture I have been moving the herd down the center of the pic. In the forefront of the pic that is an area I grazed just a couple of weeks ago and then pulled the harrow. You can see the manure is nearly gone and in the center of the pic there are very few areas that were not grazed. I will miss a few manure piles that are in depressions or are bounced over.
SRBeef
Well-known member
dun":1b6gl11s said:
Maybe it's a location and weather thing but I respectfully disagree that dragging a pasture after grazing tears up the grass. Quite the opposite in my experience. The grass grows back much stronger after dragging and spreading the manure piles. It is something like raking your lawn. It may depend on what type of drag you are using.
My main concern about dragging is compaction from the tractor tires if the ground is too wet. I do not drag if the ground is very wet. The Wingfield 3-point drag works very well for this purpose.
Jim
