Rotational grazing- grass height

[dun]

The point is how do you spread dried paint? Our manure "piles" are typically 3 feet long a foot wide and a 1/4 inch thick.

 

[agmantoo]

SRBeef

We are some distance apart and have the same experience. I am probably more concerned than you with soil compaction since our frost depth is only 6 inches. If I get on this red clay that is used for brick manufacture the clay will turn to bricks. I will ride my 4 wheeler when it is wet but I stay in the same tracks. I will not put the tractor on any paddock when it is wet. Heck, I stop folks from cutting firewood unless they walk in and can only use a vehicle to bring it out when I say it is OK. My soil is the basis of all I have for growing forage. Some may say that I approach the care of the soil in a degree of reference. Regardless, I have soil that grows forage to reflect the attention and I do it with minimal purchased inputs.

 

[agmantoo]

agmantoo,

what is your target rest period between grazings of a particular spot on the ground?

I do not have a specific rest period defined. My ultimate goal is to be able to feed the herd 365 days per year with no hay. I never waste feed but I do keep my cattle in good body condition. I permit the calves to graze ahead of the main herd so that the calves can has access to the best feed. My calves always sell in the top 10% at the sale. I am usually hit by two tough periods for feed each year, August and late Feb. When feed is abundant it could be as long as 3 months before I return to a paddock. During times of short feed it could be as frequent as two weeks. During the drought of 2007 after grazing the forage into the ground I turned the herd loose on the entire farm including the woods. Near the end of the drought I was feeding gin waste and brought in peanut hay. I have managed to get the herd sized to the capacity of the farm to produce forage. I let the action of the cattle and their body condition dictate how much area I allocate along with the amount of forage that exists in various stages of growth. I normally sell 5 weight feeder calves but will sell 4 weight calves if need be. Rotational grazing is a substitution of management for the labor and expense of making and feeding hay IMO. The profit difference between the two is considerable from my experience.

 

[SRBeef]

SRBeef

We are some distance apart and have the same experience. I am probably more concerned than you with soil compaction since our frost depth is only 6 inches. If I get on this red clay that is used for brick manufacture the clay will turn to bricks. I will ride my 4 wheeler when it is wet but I stay in the same tracks. I will not put the tractor on any paddock when it is wet. Heck, I stop folks from cutting firewood unless they walk in and can only use a vehicle to bring it out when I say it is OK. My soil is the basis of all I have for growing forage. Some may say that I approach the care of the soil in a degree of reference. Regardless, I have soil that grows forage to reflect the attention and I do it with minimal purchased inputs.

Compaction is a major concern on my WI clay hillsides also even though we do usually get deeper frost.

If you look at the Wingfield harrow link I posted somewhere above they have a smaller pull type harrow that can be used behind and ATV or UTV. I prefer the 3-point for control and transport but there are times I wish I had one of the smaller ones that could be left out near my corral and pulled by the Ranger.

However is more passes by a lighter vehicle any better on wet clay in the long run??? Probably should just stay off of it when it is too wet period.

During most of the season I try to go about 30 days between grazing a paddock. Less in the early quick growth period more if it turns hot and dry later. In short rotations it really helps to drag right after I pull the cattle off of a paddock. I don't know if its been mentionerd here but never drag a paddock with cattle on it as it could spread disease organisms. Jim

 

[agmantoo]

SRBeef

I move the cattle daily and I ride the 4 wheeler to get to the paddocks. I do not distribute manure with anything other than the tractor and a conventional drag harrow. The chain harrows do look good at the site referenced. As you stated the best thing is to stay off the pastures when it is wet.

Yesterday I took a couple of pics when I moved the herd that IMO demonstrate what the difference is between a harrowed paddock and a non harrowed one. One has had the manure dispersed and the other one did not get harrowed due to the soil being too wet to get on. These two plots are two long rectangular paddocks that are side by side. I stood in the center and took both shots.

Harrowed paddock with uniform grazing....this was grazed during and after a heavy rain resulting in some pugging

Non Harrowed with excessive ungrazed piles

 

[SRBeef]

Your pictures look just like what I see. Thank you. Jim

 

[Roan]

Pics are exactly what I am talking about. Thanks, maybe have to drag more often.

 

[agmantoo]

Yup, what pdfangus said. They have done research and determined the stocking rates for various soils, climate types, etc. All you should have to do is find that info and plug in your numbers. This is a far better method (assuming you find some stocking rates that work for your area) than looking at the grass height and guessing when you should move.

I read the discussions on this and I have pondered over the comments and I cannot conclude how anyone could possibly do rotational grazing based on a computer printout. There are to many variables that cannot be inputted in advance to obtain the information needed to manage paddocks. It is IMO essential that the herd be monitored by a person on frequent intervals and decisions and choices make based on real time information.

If I am wrong I certainly would appreciate someone pointing out where I am making my mistakes. Thanks

 

[dun]

I read the discussions on this and I have pondered over the comments and I cannot conclude how anyone could possibly do rotational grazing based on a computer printout. There are to many variables that cannot be inputted in advance to obtain the information needed to manage paddocks. It is IMO essential that the herd be monitored by a person on frequent intervals and decisions and choices make based on real time information.

If I am wrong I certainly would appreciate someone pointing out where I am making my mistakes. Thanks

You aren;t wrong!

 

[pdfangus]

why the devil does it have to be one way or the other.

what on earth is wrong with having another tool

The dad gum computer is not going to open the gate but it does give you some information to let you see what can be done.

it is a good PLANNING TOOL for someone who has not done everything there is to do.

No two days are equal in my experience but I am not going to throw away my dad gum calendar.

 

[novaman]

Yup, what pdfangus said. They have done research and determined the stocking rates for various soils, climate types, etc. All you should have to do is find that info and plug in your numbers. This is a far better method (assuming you find some stocking rates that work for your area) than looking at the grass height and guessing when you should move.

I read the discussions on this and I have pondered over the comments and I cannot conclude how anyone could possibly do rotational grazing based on a computer printout. There are to many variables that cannot be inputted in advance to obtain the information needed to manage paddocks. It is IMO essential that the herd be monitored by a person on frequent intervals and decisions and choices make based on real time information.

If I am wrong I certainly would appreciate someone pointing out where I am making my mistakes. Thanks

I figured somebody would chime in with the sort of comments you've made. Everybody is such a great rancher and manager of the land. They can go out to the pasture and know what to do and when. They need nobody to tell them what to do or how. Your way is right and anything else (especially research outside of YOUR place) is worthless. Please man. They don't do research for no dang reason. Do you even know the physiology of grass and how it grows, tillers,etc?

 

[dun]

Yup, what pdfangus said. They have done research and determined the stocking rates for various soils, climate types, etc. All you should have to do is find that info and plug in your numbers. This is a far better method (assuming you find some stocking rates that work for your area) than looking at the grass height and guessing when you should move.

I read the discussions on this and I have pondered over the comments and I cannot conclude how anyone could possibly do rotational grazing based on a computer printout. There are to many variables that cannot be inputted in advance to obtain the information needed to manage paddocks. It is IMO essential that the herd be monitored by a person on frequent intervals and decisions and choices make based on real time information.

If I am wrong I certainly would appreciate someone pointing out where I am making my mistakes. Thanks

I figured somebody would chime in with the sort of comments you've made. Everybody is such a great rancher and manager of the land. They can go out to the pasture and know what to do and when. They need nobody to tell them what to do or how. Your way is right and anything else (especially research outside of YOUR place) is worthless. Please man. They don't do research for no dang reason. Do you even know the physiology of grass and how it grows, tillers,etc?

It still comes down to the eye of the herdsman.

 

[agmantoo]

Hi Novaman

You certainly come on strong at times and maybe a bit rude IMO. I have no idea as to how I have offended you or why you want to make a brash reply. Maybe that is just your nature but it really is not necessary. It certainly does not add credibility to your replies. If anything it belittles you and diminishes your contribution.

I am uncertain to your knowledge of true rotational grazing and just rotating pastures. To me it appears there is some confusion on your behalf. I can and do see that information can be collected as to what the average acre with normal weather will produce with a specific AU or AUM. and that would apply to what the designated area could support in an average year and that would be theoretical. With rotational grazing and the associated variables that exists, the projected performance is more subjective or non empirical. That is all I was stating, that rotational grazing done properly is based on observation or experience and not statistics.

 

[SRBeef]

Hi Novaman

You certainly come on strong at times and maybe a bit rude IMO. I have no idea as to how I have offended you or why you want to make a brash reply. Maybe that is just your nature but it really is not necessary. It certainly does not add credibility to your replies. If anything it belittles you and diminishes your contribution.

I am uncertain to your knowledge of true rotational grazing and just rotating pastures. To me it appears there is some confusion on your behalf. I can and do see that information can be collected as to what the average acre with normal weather will produce with a specific AU or AUM. and that would apply to what the designated area could support in an average year and that would be theoretical. With rotational grazing and the associated variables that exists, the projected performance is more subjective or non empirical. That is all I was stating, that rotational grazing done properly is based on observation or experience and not statistics.

The way I would phrase it would be that my or anyone's stocking rate can be a lot higher when it rains than when it doesn't. There caan be some "average" stocking rate numbers around used for ball park plans. however for day to day rotational grazing I think I need to look at the grass. the area I give my herd for one week rotations in June is a much smaller area than in August. Calves are bigger (increasing my herd "cow equivalents") and the grass is growing slower... We need to be able to respond to changing conditions through the season.

I think we are also looking at this question through very different geographical perspectives. no need to get personal. jmho.

Jim

 

[dun]

The way I would phrase it would be that my or anyone's stocking rate can be a lot higher when it rains than when it doesn't. There caan be some "average" stocking rate numbers around used for ball park plans. however for day to day rotational grazing I think I need to look at the grass. the area I give my herd for one week rotations in June is a much smaller area than in August. Calves are bigger (increasing my herd "cow equivalents") and the grass is growing slower... We need to be able to respond to changing conditions through the season.

I think we are also looking at this question through very different geographical perspectives. no need to get personal. jmho.

Jim

Part of the problem is not only what different producers classify as rotational grazing there is also the "mangement intensive" part.
That leads to the situation of varying soil types and slope just within any given pasture/paddock/ grazing area. That doaen;t even bring into consideration forage types and growth patterns. Then you get into classes/types of cattle and geographic area.

 

[pdfangus]

As the guy who brought it up.......

I must defend the use of the computer.....at least as i use it.

In our area overstocking is the number one problem with grazing. people have x number of acres and Y number of animals and mostly becasue that is how many grandpa had or becasue in 2003 we had plenty of grass and everything went well and we made money.

In our area the professional farmers are not graziers. We have cash grain operations, horse hay operations a very few dairies left (generally the dairies are not graziers either )and the rest are either too many horses or land use cows.
Growing numbers of alpacas and goats and not a one of them knows anything about grass or productivity.

I use the computer program to demonstrate to them what the capacity might be and at least get them back to reality.

I am working with a guy now who has had a cow calf operation for over twenty years and does not yet realize that most of his problems are from overstocking and insufficient grass management.

I can model a managment change and show them how to improve.

Can I teach them the sublties of daily grass observation and soil improvement with the computer? Probably not. but can I show them how to improve managment skills and come closer to achievable stocking rates? You bet I can.

It is not very useful for the advanced grazer who understands his envioronment and environmental factors and the nuances of intensive grazing. but I have been grazing animals all my life and I am still trying to learn more and trying to find new tools to teach others the basics. I am trying to get folks to see the benefit of moving cattle more than two or three times per year.

With my late partner, every time I convinced him to up the pasture managment he eventually admitted that he could see the improvment. But it still ran contrary to his nature and he would resist the next change just as much. I had to be careful not to overload him at any one time.

I had a new landowner call me yesterday and he just bought ten acres and has visons of being a cattle baron. I just know he is thinking he can have ten cows. I will use the program to try to set him on a sustainable stocking rate.

What floors me is the level of acrimony that a simple discussion of the topic can bring. The master graziers are insulted and thinking I am trying to replace their experience. I desire to learn from masters. I want to be a better teacher. One who defends the use of a teaching tool is assaulted and insulted. I come here to learn and to share not to argue over who is right and wrong.

As many have said. Every situation is different and needs the perspective of experience to assay the true needs from managment.

 

[dun]

As the guy who brought it up.......

I must defend the use of the computer.....at least as i use it.

In our area overstocking is the number one problem with grazing. people have x number of acres and Y number of animals and mostly becasue that is how many grandpa had or becasue in 2003 we had plenty of grass and everything went well and we made money.

In our area the professional farmers are not graziers. We have cash grain operations, horse hay operations a very few dairies left (generally the dairies are not graziers either )and the rest are either too many horses or land use cows.
Growing numbers of alpacas and goats and not a one of them knows anything about grass or productivity.

I use the computer program to demonstrate to them what the capacity might be and at least get them back to reality.

I am working with a guy now who has had a cow calf operation for over twenty years and does not yet realize that most of his problems are from overstocking and insufficient grass management.

I can model a managment change and show them how to improve.

Can I teach them the sublties of daily grass observation and soil improvement with the computer? Probably not. but can I show them how to improve managment skills and come closer to achievable stocking rates? You bet I can.

It is not very useful for the advanced grazer who understands his envioronment and environmental factors and the nuances of intensive grazing. but I have been grazing animals all my life and I am still trying to learn more and trying to find new tools to teach others the basics. I am trying to get folks to see the benefit of moving cattle more than two or three times per year.

With my late partner, every time I convinced him to up the pasture managment he eventually admitted that he could see the improvment. But it still ran contrary to his nature and he would resist the next change just as much. I had to be careful not to overload him at any one time.

I had a new landowner call me yesterday and he just bought ten acres and has visons of being a cattle baron. I just know he is thinking he can have ten cows. I will use the program to try to set him on a sustainable stocking rate.

What floors me is the level of acrimony that a simple discussion of the topic can bring. The master graziers are insulted and thinking I am trying to replace their experience. I desire to learn from masters. I want to be a better teacher. One who defends the use of a teaching tool is assaulted and insulted. I come here to learn and to share not to argue over who is right and wrong.

As many have said. Every situation is different and needs the perspective of experience to assay the true needs from managment.

Wouldn't a calculator or even just a piece of paper and pencil be enough to show people the math?

 

[novaman]

I guess I wasn't clear. I am not saying one could go to a computer and print out a piece of paper that will lay out the entire year's rotations. I agree there must be some monitoring of the cattle and pasture conditions. The reason I get perturbed is the guys who can't admit that computer programs, reasearch, and suggested stocking rates are useful tools that are underutilized. I have been fortunate to talk with and see the work of a very very good grazing researcher working just across the road from me. He has shown and proven things that I thought were not possible and it still seems a bit far fetched but the pastures don't lie. He has grazed pastures through drought years and by the end of the grazing season you wouldn't even say there were cattle on the pasture. Obviously he uses more scientific methods that he has been working and tweaking since the 80's.

 

[shaz]

I guess I wasn't clear. I am not saying one could go to a computer and print out a piece of paper that will lay out the entire year's rotations. I agree there must be some monitoring of the cattle and pasture conditions. The reason I get perturbed is the guys who can't admit that computer programs, reasearch, and suggested stocking rates are useful tools that are underutilized. I have been fortunate to talk with and see the work of a very very good grazing researcher working just across the road from me. He has shown and proven things that I thought were not possible and it still seems a bit far fetched but the pastures don't lie. He has grazed pastures through drought years and by the end of the grazing season you wouldn't even say there were cattle on the pasture. Obviously he uses more scientific methods that he has been working and tweaking since the 80's.

Sure wish he would join the board. ;-)

 

[novaman]

I guess I wasn't clear. I am not saying one could go to a computer and print out a piece of paper that will lay out the entire year's rotations. I agree there must be some monitoring of the cattle and pasture conditions. The reason I get perturbed is the guys who can't admit that computer programs, reasearch, and suggested stocking rates are useful tools that are underutilized. I have been fortunate to talk with and see the work of a very very good grazing researcher working just across the road from me. He has shown and proven things that I thought were not possible and it still seems a bit far fetched but the pastures don't lie. He has grazed pastures through drought years and by the end of the grazing season you wouldn't even say there were cattle on the pasture. Obviously he uses more scientific methods that he has been working and tweaking since the 80's.

Sure wish he would join the board. ;-)

To be honest the guy is a little kooky but his theories and pastures back up his claims.