Replacements out of first calve heifers?

[redcowsrule33]

Often, people use a "heifer bull" on their first time heifers. A bull that statistically throws smaller weight calves and often has lighter weaning weights (but not always the case). It has been shown that consistently using this process selects for females with smaller pelvic areas. Genetically, over time, by using "heifer bulls" and retaining the heifers for replacements, you are inadvertantly selecting for females with a smaller pelvic area. A smaller pelvis means more potential for calving problems.

I agree that some "heifer bulls" are just that. But you can select proven calving ease sires that still give you decent bone and good maternal calving ease. I select my AI bulls heavily based on CED and CEM for my heifers, not just birthweight, and they need average performance, too. I learned my lesson early on using low accuracy bulls on heifers. If you like a new bull's genetics use him on your adult cows first. EPD's can change too drastically on low accuracy bulls. The hours you spend researching bulls can save you lots of hours pulling calves, and you stay cleaner. We will not use a bull with a negative CEM EPD unless he will be a terminal sire or the rest of his attributes warrant using him on a cow family with excellent CEM history. This way I don't have to cry and ship my best heifer calf because I selected her sire for CED only.

 

[dun]

Often, people use a "heifer bull" on their first time heifers. A bull that statistically throws smaller weight calves and often has lighter weaning weights (but not always the case). It has been shown that consistently using this process selects for females with smaller pelvic areas. Genetically, over time, by using "heifer bulls" and retaining the heifers for replacements, you are inadvertantly selecting for females with a smaller pelvic area. A smaller pelvis means more potential for calving problems.

I agree that some "heifer bulls" are just that. But you can select proven calving ease sires that still give you decent bone and good maternal calving ease. I select my AI bulls heavily based on CED and CEM for my heifers, not just birthweight, and they need average performance, too. I learned my lesson early on using low accuracy bulls on heifers. If you like a new bull's genetics use him on your adult cows first. EPD's can change too drastically on low accuracy bulls. The hours you spend researching bulls can save you lots of hours pulling calves, and you stay cleaner. We will not use a bull with a negative CEM EPD unless he will be a terminal sire or the rest of his attributes warrant using him on a cow family with excellent CEM history. This way I don't have to cry and ship my best heifer calf because I selected her sire for CED only.

Thank you, saved me a bunch of typing!
Inept bull selection isn;t the bulls fault.

 

[novatech]

OK out of our herd heifer calves that were kept avg. weaning weight 565#
First year heifer's their 7 calves avg. weaning weight 478#.

I would assume you used a different bull so could it be there lay the problem? Secondly aren't calves from first calf heifers usually lighter at weaning?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Heifers definately don't milk as well their first year or their 2nd year - pretty much in full stride by 4th calf. Each breed assn. ADJUSTS the official 205 day WW to reflect the age of the dam, knowing a 2year olds calf will wean more the following year and even more the next.

As far a RanchManager's comments about developing a herd of hard calving cows after continuously using "extremely easy" calving sires, I agree. I must have read the same article he read, but I already "knew" that, just out of common sense. Now, I'm talking a bull that is just a HEIFER BULL, as they are referred to. If you continuously use this type bull and keep your replacements out of him, you end up with smaller cows that will have calving difficulties. I'm not sure the research says they will have smaller pelvic size, but PS is relative to size, so yes they would end up with smaller PS - in comparison.

In each breed, there are now MANY good easy calving bulls, that have all the grown & other traits you would want in your herd.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Yes nova. We keep a bull just for our first year heifers. Yes the calves are lighter.
The better bulls are for the main herd with our proven cows.
Now I'm not saying that the heifer bull is "junk", but he has a low birth weight and allows for an easier calving. Much smaller calves.

Now for the heifers we keep they come directly from our main herd because we only keep the bull for 3 years, so when they are ready for the main bunch their sire is gone. We did keep a sire an extra year and his daughters were turned back out with the heifer bull that year. We keep the heifer bull anywhere from 5 years or longer. Now if they get nasty, like the recent one, they head down the road.
This is a closed herd and mainly the only thing brought in is the bulls.

 

[RanchManager]

Well cypressfarms, based on observations by producers and academics it has long been suspected and discussed that using bulls with ultra low birth weight or CE EPDs contributes to later calving problems in retained females. It's been my observation, thus we've resorted to sticking with lower to moderate EPDs for first timers for this and other reasons. We always keep calves from heifers if they make the grade, but we also don't A.I. or pasture breed with bulls that are not balanced in other areas of growth as well. Just an observation from years of experience and academic pursuits as well. That's my program. One sample in a sea of many.

Read some studies like:

Genetic aspects of replacement heifers in current and future production systems
M. W. Tess 1
Animal and Range Sciences Department, Montana State University, Bozeman 59717

Direct and Maternal Effects on Calving Ease in Heifers and Second Parity Pietmontese Cows
Paolo Carnier, Riccardo Dal Zotto, Andrea Albera, and Marco Bona

Google it, and you should find it somewhere. I've read it; it's in a stack of my old research/college papers. I am sure you will find other articles as well addressing what has been observed for many generations by producers.

Redcowsrule33, I did not say that you cannot give yourself a calving difficulty advantage by watching EPDs. Of course you can. I wouldn't even try to debate that. We watch EPDs. For us, it is just not the final straw. Why are you reading into a post, something not even present?

"Hog Wash", "Double Hog Wash" and other comments. Your attacks make you folks appear arrogant. I've seen many informed and educated, good posts pooh-poohed that should have been the highlights of discussion. I read these posts to observe experiences and to offer advice when I can offer something. I could on and on about my experience, education, and qualifications, blah, blah, blah. In the end this whole forum is not about me or you or serving our egos, it's about sharing education, advice, and experience. Try something like," I am not sure I agree with that for these reasons: My experience has shown me: etc." You will be better received and actually be a contributor.

Good luck to all.

 

[Brute 23]

Our cattle must be inferior to all of yalls. Most of the first calves are not what the 3rd and 4th are. I will take yalls word that they catch up.. not worth the risk in my opinion.

 

[phillse]

I have kept some heifers out of first calf heifers but the heifer has to do a very good job and the calf has to have performed well. I perfer to kepp claves out of older proven cows because of the longevity foctor mentioned. A cow that year in year out produces a good calf is what I like to keep heifers off of that being said I am not opposed to keeping a really good heifer calf out of a heifer that does and exception job. I will stop there it seems I am starting to repeat myself.

 

[hrbelgians]

i always keep heifer calves out of heifers.they are bettergenetics.because you match your cows to the best bulls you can.an then breed the heifer the same way.

Are you saying.........You would then breed the heifers to their sire???

 

[Brute 23]

That is my other problem with keeping calves from first year heifers... that cow has not proven herself yet, nor has that bull heifer combo. How do I know I want to keep replacement from them?

 

[bigbull338]

i always keep heifer calves out of heifers.they are bettergenetics.because you match your cows to the best bulls you can.an then breed the heifer the same way.

Are you saying.........You would then breed the heifers to their sire???

yes i have no prob linebreeding when its done right.an im not afraid to breed her back to her daddy.ive got 2 heifers im keeping this year.1 is out of my herd bull.the other isnt.an i also have 2 unrelated bulls i can breed the heifers to.

 

[hrbelgians]

i always keep heifer calves out of heifers.they are bettergenetics.because you match your cows to the best bulls you can.an then breed the heifer the same way.

Are you saying.........You would then breed the heifers to their sire???

yes i have no prob linebreeding when its done right.an im not afraid to breed her back to her daddy.ive got 2 heifers im keeping this year.1 is out of my herd bull.the other isnt.an i also have 2 unrelated bulls i can breed the heifers to.

Thanks for clarifying BB. I have been toying with that idea myself.

 

[lcc]

Hello, We here at lm & lcc ai all of ft calf hiefers to bulls that met our demands. ce is one 1rs con. but performist is as taken. We breed about 200 hd and get about 60% rate . Then after 10 days we put out yl bulls raised on the ranch out of reg herd. These are also with low birth wieghts but good performers. The next year we use the same bulls on the cows as 2yls. We keep all the ft calf hiefer calfs out the ai bulls, ect a few culls. These have made some our best cows.

 

[regolith]

As a dairy farmer, the main reason for not keeping replacements from heifers is that they're grazed with a run-of-the-mill Jersey bull for easy calving. The remainder of the milking herd is drafted when on-heat for AI, the yearlings not handled regularly enough to make it worth pulling them out for AI.

And this: That is my other problem with keeping calves from first year heifers... that cow has not proven herself yet, nor has that bull heifer combo. How do I know I want to keep replacement from them?

I've kept heifer calves from natural matings. They're smaller, take longer to wean at the same weight as the older cows' calves. They seem to have caught up now - at 18 mths old. Because they're not AI bred I'll only keep them out of the best looking heifers, good healthy calves. And sometimes I've regretted it - kept a calf from a very nervous heifer, calf has same disposition. Kept another from heifer with good breeding figures, her performance wasn't half what the paperwork said it should be.
They'll be in the milking herd next year, when I'll get a better idea how they perform against the AI-bred stock. Kept six pure Jerseys (had 2/3 bull calves to heifers that season), have 5 now as one succumbed to malignant catarrhal fever last month. Usually I'd keep crossbreds as I reckon the hybrid vigour makes up for the small size at birth and lack of breeding.
Think I have three yearlings in-calf to AI (bought last winter and kept them with the dairy cows), AI'd them myself, bit trickier than older cows. But I'll be pleased to see their calves if they're heifers.
There's risk that the heifer's calf doesn't get colostrum because she's first-time Mum, but as far as I can see most of them do just fine at getting that feed.

 

[Alberta farmer]

I guess my system of selecting heifer replacements is pretty crude. Because I don't wean very early I pretty well know who is going to be staying around and who isn't. The big stout heifers, from good mommas, get the chance. They go out with the cows in a multi bull pasture and after 70 days if they aren't in calf they go with the grass yearlings in August to the sale. If they lose their first calf they go to town(no excuses). If I have to help them calve or suck, they get one more chance the next year. If they give any problems the next year, its off to town(no excuses)!
Don't care if they are a heifers calf or a 14 year old cow as long as they fit the bill and get the job done. I think this "no tender loving care" has given me a good tough herd of cows.
I try to keep my bulls only a couple of years but sometimes you get a few father daughter matings. Usually a scrub but as yearlings they still sell fairly well and sometimes they are outstanding!

 

[hrbelgians]

Thanks again to everyone who responded here!!