Remember This Bull?

[I luv herfrds]

This was our Churchill bull that decided he didn't like me and came after me.
Well 2 of his daughters are hitting the road this fall. Same temperment. One has a horn on her head that the paste missed and something about her just puts us on edge. The second one tried to take our daughter through the feed bunk down at the barn.
If there had been room on the trailer they both would have been gone!

Hope these are last of this bull's line.

 

[Big Cheese]

I hate cows or bulls that come at me. They do that then they are gone. If I cant stand there and work a calf without the fear of them coming at me then I don't want them no matter how good the momma is or how good a calf the bull throws. Been there done that and I haven't even been in the business that long for myself lol I'm only 25.

 

[bigbull338]

your doing the right thing by sending that bulls daughters down the road.i was at a sale last sat looking at a bull and he blew snot in my pocket.me and my buddy looked at eachother and said neither of us would have that bull.then the 70+yr old owner walked in the pen and moved him around.the new bull i have coming is dog gentle.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Went through my files and all the calves born from him are gone except those 2.

That cow from him scared our daughter so bad she refused to go to the barn to take care of her 4-H Jersey cow.
Tried to take hubby on his 4-wheeler too.

 

[Aaron]

Was wondering how that bull turned out for you. Unfortunate. At least the money makes it worth while getting rid of them now.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Yeah Aaron. They are both 4 years old with calves at their sides.

Been having better luck with Ace's bulls!

 

[farmerquig]

what Churchill Bull was it ? who was Sire ?
I am keeping a close eye on the personality of ours now that hormones are kicking in (9 mos)

 

[SPH]

Poor disposition in any animal is a good reason to send them off. They just aren't worth the problems no matter how good they are. Sent a bred heifer off last fall that was pretty high strung - she wasn't agressive but she sure didn't like being around people or in smaller confined areas. She was OK when running with the big group in the pasture as long as she kept you at a safe distance but was nutty as hell when in a smaller group where she couldn't blend in and hide amongst the herd. We hoped maybe as she matured as a heifer maybe she would calm down and grow out of it but it was obvious by the fall that wasn't going to be the case and didn't want to mess with calving her out. Just not worth the safety risks to keep cattle you can't trust being around when you are working them, especially when some of the people handling them are getting older.

 

[Son of Butch]

what Churchill Bull was it ? who was Sire ?
I am keeping a close eye on the personality of ours now that hormones are kicking in (9 mos)

Yes, it would be nice to know what bloodlines may cause trouble.
But Hereford Assoc. sez herefords are all so gentle and quiet no need to track or measure docility or temperament scores.
OR maybe they are planning to recommend not keeping female replacements from hereford sires and one day will just come
out and endorse only using high docility Angus sires for replacements. Everyone knows black baldies are the best cows. ;-)

 

[SPH]

what Churchill Bull was it ? who was Sire ?
I am keeping a close eye on the personality of ours now that hormones are kicking in (9 mos)

Yes, it would be nice to know what bloodlines may cause trouble.
But Hereford Assoc. sez herefords are all so gentle and quiet no need for docility or temperament scores.

As part of TPR reporting for Herefords you can report chute scores at weaning (I doubt the number of people actually doing it are very high either) which I think is a little rediculous because you can run the same calf through the chute several times a year and it may react differently each time through so I think an EPD for docility/temperment would be highly inaccurate if AHA ever went to using one. We pretty much report almost all 1's back for chute scores and maybe have a few 2's sprinkled in and most of those we are probably really reaching to find a reason to give them a 2 just so we don't report back all 1's because even a calf reacted breifly after being jabbed by a needle doesn't mean they aren't docile but when the last 10 calves before him didn't even flinch when given their shots something has to be criteria for not being a 1 score I guess.

There are so many things that can contribute to the disposition of an animal I don't think putting an EPD number on it would really accomplish anything because very few would even believe it is accurate considering some don't even believe in EPDs at all as it is. You have to factor in the environment in which that animal is being raising in along with how do the breeders handle and treat their animals. Our vet says there are some places he goes to that he thinks about the only time that cattle is around humans is whenever they have him out for something so the cattle are nutty as hell from not being used to frequent interaction with humans. And unfortunately there are breeders out there that don't always practice very good animal welfare practices with their cattle which can lead to disposition problems too. We've have full sibling matings that had completely oposite tempermants so while I think maybe you can possibly say certain bloodlines are less docile than others it really is just a crapshoot from animal to animal.

I find the Angus docility EPD as more of a marketing ploy than having any real value IMO and I hope the Herefords don't eventually go that route too but I would not be shocked if they did either. If someone really believes that you can accurately predict docility with an EPD number then I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I would love to sell you.

 

[Son of Butch]

If you don't think disposition is genetic then all breeds must be the same and environment is the only factor.
Too hard to measure and too many variables?
That can be said for just about every trait from calving ease to carcass value.

Culling 2 heifers solely for temperament from same sire isn't a concern?
An A.I. sire can influence entire breed, problems need to be recognized and always the sooner the better.
Early culling for reproduction, temperament or bad udder affects profit.

How about reporting numbers leaving herd and include reason and age at culling?
The information should be used to improve reliability of other measurements and to improve the reliability of
docility scores and stayability.

Or you can say, no need to worry about hereford disposition because All herefords are gentle and quiet unless mishandled.
And the 2 heifers culled solely for temperament from the same hereford sire was just a coincidence and everything the
Angus guys do is not to try to improve their breed, but just a marketing ploy with the underlying intent of destroying red cattle.

 

[greybeard]

I find the Angus docility EPD as more of a marketing ploy than having any real value

Angus--use a marketing ploy??? :wave:
Surely you jest..

 

[Son of Butch]

I find the Angus docility EPD as more of a marketing ploy than having any real value

Angus--use a marketing ploy??? :wave:
Surely you jest..

Are marketing and capitalism four letter words to Hereford breeders?
After all RED is the color of the Communist Party. ;-) :lol:

 

[Aaron]

I find the Angus docility EPD as more of a marketing ploy than having any real value

Angus--use a marketing ploy??? :wave:
Surely you jest..

Are marketing and capitalism four letter words to Hereford breeders?
After all RED is the color of the Communist Party. ;-) :lol:

Fortunately, Herefords are communists. Their collective efforts go towards enhancing the prosperity of the great leader - something they do quite well. Not like those Charolais, where it's all about me, me, me.

 

[Herefords.US]

what Churchill Bull was it ? who was Sire ?
I am keeping a close eye on the personality of ours now that hormones are kicking in (9 mos)

If I remember correctly, that bull was actually sired by a station bred straight line 1 bull - L1 Domino 95461. I had a couple of heifers sired by the 95461 bull (AI) and I had no disposition problems with them.

I think a lot of disposition problems are environmental. I have a leased pasture where I see the cows there about once a month. The calves born there are generally always harder to handle than the home born ones are.

George

 

[SPH]

If you don't think disposition is genetic then all breeds must be the same and environment is the only factor.
Too hard to measure and too many variables?
That can be said for just about every trait from calving ease to carcass value.

Culling 2 heifers solely for temperament from same sire isn't a concern?
An A.I. sire can influence entire breed, problems need to be recognized and always the sooner the better.
Early culling for reproduction, temperament or bad udder affects profit.

How about reporting numbers leaving herd and include reason and age at culling?
The information should be used to improve reliability of other measurements and to improve the reliability of
docility scores and stayability.

Or you can say, no need to worry about hereford disposition because All herefords are gentle and quiet unless mishandled.
And the 2 heifers culled solely for temperament from the same hereford sire was just a coincidence and everything the
Angus guys do is not to try to improve their breed, but just a marketing ploy with the underlying intent of destroying red cattle.

I do agree that docility issues can be genetic, I'm just stating an opinion when I look at all factors that play into the behavior of an animal and I realize not everyone may agree but it's just 1 person's opinion. I was trying to bring home the point that even genetics that are known for docility issues the environment that cattle are raised in still can contribute to it in some way. I just don't believe that you can accurately predict/quantify docility characteristics with an EPD number and this is coming from someone who values EPDs as one of their tools for selection criteria in our own breeding choices. The problem with trusting EPDs too much is that no only is there a lack of data being reported to increase their accuracies but also how one breeder raises their cattle compared to another can skew that data too. Let's take some of the growth traits for example, you're probably going to get bigger birth weights with cattle that are overfed, you're going to get bigger weaning weights when you creep feed more, and how your cattle is handled could very much influence their docility too. That's why I wouldn't have much faith in a docility EPD because I know what 1 guy thinks is wild another guy might say it isn't that wild at all and can tolerate it which is why I wouldn't trust a docility EPD because there would be such a discrepancy on how animals are scored based on the tolerance level of the breeder and their interpretation of docile.

There is always still going to be a visual factor that goes into culling and breeding decisions, just because a cow has a great EPDs for udder structure or milk doesn't mean she is going to have perfect teats or good milk and you can go down the line with all the EPDs and probably pick out instances where a certain bull or cow didn't perform as their EPDs would say they predict. Just like any other measurable trait culling based on structural flaws and tempermant are necessary too and those traits don't always show up on the EPD line so to say just because a sire and dam have great looking docility EPDs the result is going to be a docile calf. I just have a hard time believing in any reliable accuracy in a docility EPD when there are too many environmental factors that can play into how that animal is going to behave, especially when removed from the environment in which is was raised in and taken to a new and unfamilar environment.

We're a TPR Hereford breeder so believe me we're all about reporting data on our herd and believe that everyone should be doing it because it would help increase EPD accuracies but it's also just 1 tool to use within your herd managment. There are some bulls at these AI studs that are EPD wonders but are flawed structurally but the AI stud is not focusing on that they are trying to sell you mostly on the great EPDs that bull has even if it might wreck your herd in other ways. Yes I also will admit I am a little biased about the Hereford breed when it comes to docility much like anyone who breeds a certain breed you think your breed is better for 1 reason or another but just like Angus bulls getting a bad reputation for their poor temperment we have to deal with the bad reputation the breed got over the years for prolapses and eye problems whether true or not. Just like any of those issues we're going to cull for it if we pin down genetics that are causing it just like we would if we had a wild cow or bull but sometimes it may just be pure bad luck with that 1 animal. Take that wild heifer I mentioned that we got rid of, we sold her full brother the year before to a commercial breeder who has told us that he is their "gentle giant" and we've had enough calves both by their sire and cow to know neither have docility issues with their progeny so we just chalked that heifer up as a lost cause and moved on.

 

[Son of Butch]

I think a lot of disposition problems are environmental. I have a leased pasture where I see the cows there about
once a month. The calves born there are generally always harder to handle than the home born ones are.

I absolutely agree, a lot of disposition problems are environmental, as are reproduction, ww yw rate of gain ect. ect.
but that doesn't mean genetic influence should be ignored.

It's more of a marketing ploy to keep problems hidden than working to solve them, prevent them or at least trying to
put the odds in your favor for success.

 

[SPH]

I think a lot of disposition problems are environmental. I have a leased pasture where I see the cows there about
once a month. The calves born there are generally always harder to handle than the home born ones are.

I absolutely agree, a lot of disposition problems are environmental, as are reproduction, ww yw rate of gain ect. ect.
but that doesn't mean genetic influence should be ignored.

It's more of a marketing ploy to keep problems hidden than working to solve them, prevent them or at least trying to
put the odds in your favor for success.

I couldn't agree more with that statement!

I'm not trying to pick on any particular breed here either about this, hell we have issues within the Hereford breed just like any breed does. I'm a big believer that you have to know how to read a pedigree and use everything you have at your disposal to make decisions and that includes EPDs, breeding genetics, actual raw data, and of course the eye test. Anything that can be quantified by a number on paper can be altered/skewed by environmental factors so you have to know how to balance that information along with just using come common sense on what your eyes are telling you too.

 

[Herefords.US]

I think a lot of disposition problems are environmental. I have a leased pasture where I see the cows there about
once a month. The calves born there are generally always harder to handle than the home born ones are.

I absolutely agree, a lot of disposition problems are environmental, as are reproduction, ww yw rate of gain ect. ect.
but that doesn't mean genetic influence should be ignored.

It's more of a marketing ploy to keep problems hidden than working to solve them or at least trying to prevent them.

No, genetics certainly should never be ignored! But I have seen far more disposition problems that have no apparent genetic link than ones that might have...and the reverse! This year the tamest calf that I have in my summer crop is out of the "flightiest" cow that I own.

I wish all my cows were like one cow that I owned. 51 weeks a year I could walk right up to her and pet her. But every year, for about a week after she calved, she take her calf and try to stay hidden in a remote part of the pasture. She never displayed any aggression toward me, just selfishness. The one detraction of getting cattle TOO docile in this part of the country is they also tend to be less aggressive against predators.

I should probably add to this conversation that I have a general distrust of EPDs, especially low-accuracy unproven EPDs! And particularly the EPDs that require some "subjective" input by breeders, like docility EPDs.

George

 

[I luv herfrds]

Just got home from some EMS training.

Yes George that was the bulls sire. This bull always acted different then our other bulls. He would literally be running the fat off himself going from one end of the herd of cows to the other. He also wanted to fight both of our other bulls. Our other 2 bulls would just stand there looking at him chewing their cud. I think they kicked his butt a few times.
Maybe he didn't like living on the plains and preferred the mountains, I don't know. BUT charging me twice and stalking; not following; but stalking me around the corral was enough for me.

We went out checking them every 2 to 3 days so it was not like we were not around.

Son of Butch and SPH we have culled ALL of this bulls daughters. These were pretty much the last 2! Went through the records and they are all gone with a note next to their number with the word B*tch. That should tell you something.

We have gotten some pretty calm heifers out of flighty cows too and some flighty heifers out of calm cows. The bulls temperment does have an affect on the offspring.

Kept a steer back from him too. Was never so glad to have a steer shot for the freezer.