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Well , nothing puts growth on calves like Charolais. I think you are thinking right.
Red Charolais
- Thread starter Warren Allison
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clarkmorefarm
Well-known member
My heifers are 50% south poll, I'm not sure they'd be a good candidate for any Charolais breeding to start. I'm a little worried about the moderate size of them, but I think they can raise good calves. Cows are bred to South Poll bull, if I'm not happy with the claves, it would be easy enough for me to change course now.
I do like my red Angus cow, I think she would do what I want.
crossbreed
Well-known member
I went with a red gelbveih this year to put on my char and black. As good as the char grow I’d entertain red char heifers.
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J Bar Stenberg has a great red Charolais program.
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That's what my friend Clay wants to do...produce red Char replacement heifers. He has had his cows down here for 7-8 months. and he could sell 100 right now if he had them. I need to buy about $200k worth of cattle before Dec 31st, and was trying to get 400 more Black Corriente. But, the price point on them is making it too difficult to get what we need by then. I am thinking about just buying the red Char cows for Clay ( he will pay me back ,of course) with about half of that money.. I could find 40-50 of them pretty easily. It would be 18 months or more, though, before he had any replacements for sale. I talked with him about that the other day, and the trader in me came out. My thought is why buy those cows, breed them for heifer calves, and grow those heifers up to sell to those people he has that are wanting them? Just buy those cows and haul them straight to those people at a profit! So, I am going to look at it as a loan, not a business partnership, if we do it. And just bite my lip and stay out of it! :)
Travlr
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Somewhere I heard you were trying to retire or buy less cattle or something along those lines. I could swear I've heard that like ten times over the last year or so.
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Four times since 2022 for real! But things just keep turning up. When Scott decided to cut back on row crops, and put those 400 acres across the road from the Kudzu place in pasture, we thought about pursuing his and my dream of raising some f1 Brahma heifers. I had bought up 12 registered cows and we have five 1/2 Brahma heifers of the 5 dairy nurse cows. each year. But Mike made us this proposition to use that land to buy 400 more Corrs, and he'd buy all of those calves too. Those 17 1/2 Brahmas will just have to be enough, and I may actually sell the 12 Brahma cows, if someone wants them bad enough. Scott is cutting way back on his row-cropping, so we put his 400 acres across the road in to World Feeder/Bulldog Alfalfa. Grants bought the fertilizer, paid for the sprigging, and paid for the cross fencing, so we just about had to do it. Then when that 273 acres went up for sale beside the Kudzu Place, I'd have been a fool not to buy it. 250 acres or so of it is planted pines, past ready to harvest. That gives us 496 acres on that side of the road, and 455 acres where his row crops and our dove field were. Last week, we went and fenced in another 265 acres that was one of his peanut fields this year. It is 6 miles down the road form Scott's house, and the land belongs to his mother. It is irrigated, so water was available. It was already fenced on 3 sides...we just had to fence about 1/4 mile by the road. When he dug the peanuts in August, he sowed small grains on it for a cover crop, but he decided if I could help him fence it and put in a water line for the waterers, we'd just make it a pasture, too. He will get a grant to sprig it and cross fence it, too. I went down there last week stayed in my camper, and pulled Zeke and his buddy off the pulp wood cutting and had them fence it. They had all the poles in the first day, while I ran about 50 feet of water line from the irrigation well to where I wanted to put the waterers. Finished the 5-strand fence by lunch the next day. This gives us about 1200 acres of pasture.
I have a little over 150 of the 400 Corrs I wanted to buy, bought now. Here lately, the price point on Corrientes, especially solid colored and most especially solid blacks, has sky-rocketed to the point that I can no longer buy up the reds and the blacks, and sell the reds for enough to get the blacks for nothing or next to nothing. Found a great set of 33 solid back Corrs, 2 and 1/2 years old, any where from 8 mos bred to nursing a month old calf. These calves are *&^$#% Char calves, so I was going to pass ( $950 each if all taken), but Mike said he'd buy the calves anyhow for his butcher shop. His wife and daughter -in-law have started selling beef out of their little butcher shop there on Mike's place. They are not selling wholes or half or quarters...they just sell steaks, prime ribs, and ground beef to people, and a few local restaurants. He told me he'd give me $950 at weaning for steers or heifers either one, so I sent my grandson after them.
Once we get to the point of producing 800 calves for Mike ( I figure I want to get about 825 head of cows), then the work is done! Just round them up once a month to ear tag and band the new ones for that month, and cut out the 6 month old ones to go back home with Mike. About 65-70 a month. Mike has brought a loading ramp down, so he will use his 18 wheeler cattle trailer to haul them back with. He will send his help (Clay and Mike's son) and his truck down each month to do this. I will haul their horses and mine down with my trailer. Joe and Lisa will help rounding up and sorting, too, since Scott is about done riding that long and that hard. If all 800 were steers at the contract price with Mike, we'd get $1.12mil a year. If all 800 were heifers at the contract price, we'd get about $950k. So , I figure if the calves are half and half that's a little over a $1.02 mil gross, and about a mil net each year. 825 Corrs on 1200 acres ... won't have to buy a thing but the mineral salt. 625 of those acres we will have to fertilize and spray herbicide on, though. This year that 265 acres of Scott's mom yielded the most pound of peanuts in 10 years.. He is going to look back and see what the highest price per pound he got was, and this is what we are going to pay her rent on. I just got about 250 Corrs more to go, and I am done.
Mike had 400 Corrs of his own, that we bought, and he contracted with some producers in Alabama and Florida and I think 1 in Mississippi, to buy another 600. He provides the bull for them to use. He feeds out 900+ a year that fit his program...4 mos on his growth mix, then sends them to a lot in Oklahoma to feed corn for 4 months. But since we bought his cows, he is planting all of that pasture in corn, and is going to finish them all there. He said once we get to the 800 mark, he was going to quit fooling with the other places, except for one in Alabama that raises 160 a year, and those are the best of the bunch. Most of them are Fla Srub or Fla Cracker, and some Pineywoods cows. He said those folks were getting old (they are the same age as me, Scott and Mike :) ) and they are thinking about retiring. So I told him to see if we could just buy those cows. That way with 985 cows, we could just be his sole supplier, and with 1200 acres we could do that. And, we will still be able to shut them out of the Kudzu Place and the 55 acre old dove field across the road, from in Nov til the end of February for quail and rabbit season.
I know all that sounds like a lot of work, but once we are done buying cows, fencing, sprigging and planting, there really is nothing left to do but ear tags and banding the bulls once a month. And on the bermuda pastures, Scot will run his Hi-Boy over them in the early spring, with liquid Calcium, liquid Nitrogen, and the 24D in it, and, I will spread granular K and P when needed.
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clarkmorefarm
Well-known member
Glad I got everyone talking about red char again 
I would be very interested in a red char bull if they start coming down to the southeast, just not sure I would start one on heifers yet.
I would be very interested in a red char bull if they start coming down to the southeast, just not sure I would start one on heifers yet.
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Sutphin sold some last Saturday at his bull sale at the Seminole Livestock Exchange in Donaldsonville, Ga. The main ranch is in Colorado, but I think they have a place in Arkansas, too . Is AI not an option for you, @clarkmorefarm ?Glad I got everyone talking about red char again
I would be very interested in a red char bull if they start coming down to the southeast, just not sure I would start one on heifers yet.
clarkmorefarm
Well-known member
It could be, I have no facilities for AI right now and I have zero knowledge on AI either. Working for my grandad we always just had a bull. In a lot of ways, it probably makes the most sense for me to go with AI since I'm a very small herd.
I'm working on finishing paddocks for rotating pasture right now, my cows and heifers are just in two of them at the moment. I don't have a corral or chute yet. That is on my short list. I've applied for funding through TN's TAEP program for some cost sharing as a beginning farmer. I should have the funding decision for it in December (basically I should get the 50% match no problem), then I'm going to work on getting that setup. When I brought my 5 head home, I just turned them loose in the pasture from the trailer.
I still would like to own a red char bull in the long term, but will need more head to support that.
PS: I can also use TAEP for genetics for the 2026 year if I apply for it, it will fund for bull or AI as well I think up to $2,000 if the bull meets the EPD requirements. I chose livestock equipment for this year because I need a corral soon.
clarkmorefarm
Well-known member
Just looked over the Sutphin sale from last week, Lot 983 Suthpins Range Fire Red 0109 Char bull would have been a good fit for what I have currently in cows. I would guess his price was fair to at $3,900 but would have to look more into that. Thanks for the info on them.
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Yeah, you'd need a chute, head gate, etc, to AI them there at your place. But you'd use it for more than that....worming, vaccs, etc. Even if you had to haul them to a vote to do the AI for you, it would still be a lot cheaper than buying and keeping a bull.
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@clarkmorefarm , I was looking at this thread to find that list of red Charolais breeders someone had posted. I read this post by you and I remembered you had asked me about red Charolais on one of my threads. Last week I had to go over to Miller county to look at a job we might bid on, and the old man that owned the gin, wanted to go show me his cows when we got done. He had about 20 good, purebred Santa Gertrudis cows, and I think he said he had 15 registered red Brangus cows. He has used a red Charolais bull for the past 3 years. He calves in October, more or less. Some last of September and some first of November. These were as nice a bunch of red calves as I have ever seen. Anywhere. If he hadn't told me they were two months old, I would have guessed 4 months. He said he sells his steers when he weans, and keeps the heifers til they are a year or so old, and he has people that buys them as replacements. He said before he got that bull, he had used polled Herefords, and got some nice red baldies, but he says he probably picked up 100 lbs at weaning on his steers with the Charolais. If we do submit a bid, when I go back over there to take it to him, I will make some pics to send you. Or post on here. I had left my camera in my truck when I rode with him to look at cows.
While we were there, his neighbor rolled up with 2 Brahma cows, a red and a grey, with f1 Braford babies. One calf was tiger striped and the other black. His neighbor keeps a herd of Brahma cows and raises f1 Brafords off of them. He wanted to breed these 2 to the man's red Charolais bull, and see what kind of red Charbrays they'd make. He calves in October, too, and those 2 calves were very nice, but noticeably smaller than this man's calves. He also brought 2 f1 heifers, red & white, to see what they'd do with this red Charolais bull.
He took me over to another pasture on the way back to the gin, where he had 3 of last year's Gert heifers and 3 of last year's Brangus heifers. They were about 14 months old, and I would guess 1200 lbs, or close to it. Come February, he is going to breed them to that neighbor's Hereford bulls, 3 to a red Hereford bull and 3 to his black Hereford bull. I guess they are trading out stud service.
If he had Brangus cows, instead of the Gertrudis and red Brangus, he'd pick up some more money when he sold his steers. But I don't think being red hurts him price-wise on the replacement heifers. If I were buying commercial cows or heifers, I would as soon have these as a black one. I'd be breeding to some kind of homo for black bull anyway, so them being red wouldn't matter.
I think this old man might have hit on a winning cross there with these. They gonna be just 3/16ths "eared" cattle, and that will sell well anywhere in the south. If they weren't with their momma, I wouldn't be able to tell which ones were out of the Santa Gertrudis cows and which were out of the red Brangus. I also think his neighbor will do well with those red Charolais x F1 Brafords, too. They gonna be red baldies, with just 1/4 "ear".
The problem I see with red Charolais currently is that anytime color is the main ingredient in selection, whether it’s dogs, horses or cattle, quality is diminished. Because the number of red Charolais bulls is much smaller, there are fewer bulls who would rank in the top end of the Charolais breed. Bulls are bred and sold because of their color, not their quality. In my area, Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia, we have a number of mid-to-upper level breeders of Charolais bulls. I’m sure Warren will agree with me. Few if any Red Bulls in the mix. This scenario can occur in many different breeds and species. I welcome your comments.
Travlr
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Your point is valid. Any time you have a breed there is a pyramid feeding quality from the bottom to the top. With a breed that numbers less animals the pyramid is smaller so the top animals have less gene pool to draw from.
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I get what you are saying. It was before my time, but Appaloosa breeders almost ruined that breed, by breeding strictly for color. They turned them into a bunch of rat-tailed, rat-maned, Roman nosed horses with undesirable dispositions and bad feet. Crossing with QH and TB blood, has greatly improved the breed, but in some circles that old reputation is still there among horsemen. I have heard " that crazy App" in my life, a lot.
I have done a lot of research on red Charolais lately. It is true there are a lot in Canada, and they are becoming available in the US more and more each year. One thing I found out, is that they are pure Charolais, genetically the same as the double dilute whites and diluted light red or yellowish ones. Charolais have always been red, but they can carry a defective dilute gene. In Europe, prior to the times around the 1930's, most were red, but some carried the dilute gene that made them light red, yellow, tan or whatever you want to call it. And when two of those bred, and the calf got a copy of the dilute gene from both parents, you'd get the white ones you see today. Then in Germany, and German-occupied countries, due to political reasons, etc, a concerted effort was made to breed them all for the whites, and to eliminate the red one. This was actually the time that Charolais were bred for color, and not necessarily for quality. In non-German occupied countries, there were still red Charolais to be found, so since the war, people have been breeding in reverse for red. Single dilute to single dilute, which would would give you 25% of the calves homozygous for red. Then breeding these to single dilutes, and to other homozygous reds, etc, to build those numbers back up. What I like about them is, they are all 100% Charolais. No other breed was introduced to get that color, like what happened to give us black Simmental, black Limousin, black Gelbvieh, black Hereford, or black Beefmasters. And I hear there are people breeding for a black Charolais.
I understand, that back in the 60's or whenever Charolais first started showing up here, the American Charolais registry had a breed-up program, that allowed outcrosses to different breeds. I don't know if that herd book is closed now or not. Maybe some Charolais breeders on here can weigh in on that.
I think some of the breeders in Canada are importing semen and embryos from Europe, They may be able to import live cattle, I don't know. I know they could Chianina back when they first showed up when I was a little boy, but anything you could get down here, was only partial Chianina. Maybe some of the Canadian members can share about that.
I think in the next 10-20 years, we will see them in most every part of the country. And I especially think they will become the sought after out-cross on black cattle. Hopefully, what you are warning about won't happen, but I agree it is something that people should keep an eye on. It would be a tragedy to sacrifice that Charolais growth, for a color.
Cabanha Santa Isabel/BRZ
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Charolais was influenced by Shorthorns in mid 1800's.
Maybe the red gene come from there.
Also, Charolais were introduced in North America (USA and Mexica) through upgrading (Aberdeen Angus, Hereford, Shorthorn, and others)....red gene can also come from there.
Maybe the red gene come from there.
Also, Charolais were introduced in North America (USA and Mexica) through upgrading (Aberdeen Angus, Hereford, Shorthorn, and others)....red gene can also come from there.
crossbreed
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Somewhere in this line I thought I read that the red color is a non-dilute? Should that not mean calves out of a red bull will always be red? I bought a red Gelbvieh last year, first 2 calves are on the ground this week. The black Brangus cow threw a black calf, usually throws smokes out of the Charolais. The white char/brangus cross threw a red calf, what I was expecting. Should they all be red and maybe sneaky neighbor bull came visiting or should I expect more black calves out of my black cows?
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Red is recessive. All red cattle are homozygous for red. They can only pass on a red gene. Black is dominant, and a black cow may be homozygous black, or hetero: 1 black and 1 red gene. If that Brangus had a black calf, she is probably homo black. If she ever has a red one, then you will know she is heterozygous black.
crossbreed
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Thanks for the reply. First black calf I've ever had with this group, but always bred to Char and calves always came smokey so I guess I assumed these calves would be red. Guess if I'm really going to pursue red (Gelbvieh or red Char) I'll have to work the brangus out. Not a big deal though if they are good calves.
