Raw Milk

[Ouachita]

I'm not up on dairy but wouldn't 500 gallons a month limit you to only two cows with some breeds? My grandparents had a handful of milk cows and they produced a pile of milk. He would milk them and put the milk in big cans for the milk guy to pick up and grandma always had the fresh milk in the house. Can't say any of us ever got sick but only having to deal with a few cows would make a big difference on sanitation I would think. Personally, I think if someone wants to sell milk or anything else off the farm the government needs to just stay out of it.

I agree. They would have done us a better service to just decriminalize. Instead it seems they have sanctioned a cottage industry without safeguards whatsoever

 

[Limomike]

WE have a producer of raw milk & cheese around our parts.. and they been doing it for over 40+ years. No one ever gotten sick from it, and they have won awards up in Wisconsin (cheese country) for their cheeses. My kids were raised on it.. and so were many others around here.
As long as they do it right its a good thing.

and therein lies the problem!

NEVER has been a problem. only good milk that thousands have drank for years and years.

 

[M.Magis]

WE have a producer of raw milk & cheese around our parts.. and they been doing it for over 40+ years. No one ever gotten sick from it, and they have won awards up in Wisconsin (cheese country) for their cheeses. My kids were raised on it.. and so were many others around here.
As long as they do it right its a good thing.

and therein lies the problem!

NEVER has been a problem. only good milk that thousands have drank for years and years.

Um, it has been a problem. A huge problem. Look up the number of deaths from food born illnesses before the pasteurized milk laws vs. after. The numbers are scary. Drinking milk from ones own cow is one thing. Bottling and selling it to the public is quite another.

 

[chippie]

The idea of just anyone selling milk without inspection or certification or proper training on milk handling procedures reminded me of a Baxter Black story.

One winter, Baxter Black had an old farmer call him about his milk cow. The taste of the milk was off. The old man didn't know why. He hadn't changed anything.
They went out to the barn to look at the cow and Baxter B commented how cold his feet were getting. The farmer said that he didn't have any problem with the cold. He put his feet in the milk bucket to keep them warm while he was milking.

Enough said.

Something else. 500 gallons is not a lot of milk. If you have a cow who gives 7 gallons a day, 71 days = 500 gallons.
If you have 3 cows that give 7 gallons a day, they will hit the 500 gallon mark in 23 days.
The catch is finding enough customers to buy the milk. With the new law passing, I bet there will be a boatload of people trying to sell milk and the price will drop. The only reason it is so high here is because it is not readily available. People have to travel to get it.

 

[Ouachita]

The idea of just anyone selling milk without inspection or certification or proper training on milk handling procedures............

Exactly :nod:

 

[Dave]

My Dad tells stories of entire families who died in the '30's of tuberculosis because they had an infected cow. Everyone had a cow and everyone drank raw milk but there were definitely people who died doing it.
Here you can sell raw milk but you have to qualify as a Grade A dairy even if you only have one cow. You also are required to test the cows for everything under the sun. And still occasionally they get some kid sick.

 

[Jogeephus]

Something else. 500 gallons is not a lot of milk. If you have a cow who gives 7 gallons a day, 71 days = 500 gallons. If you have 3 cows that give 7 gallons a day, they will hit the 500 gallon mark in 23 days.The catch is finding enough customers to buy the milk. With the new law passing, I bet there will be a boatload of people trying to sell milk and the price will drop. The only reason it is so high here is because it is not readily available. People have to travel to get it.

I agree and to elaborate, if you don't have to travel you will be buying it local and everyone knows who the village idiot is so you don't buy it from them. What I don't like is all the bureaucracy they throw on us and how they treat everyone like we are all idiots. He77, in Georgia I have to have a license to sell friggin eggs out from under a chicken. While I know there are some who might need to spend years in college learning the correct way to pick up an egg but honestly - I don't and I don't think most on this board would either.

 

[3waycross]

My Dad tells stories of entire families who died in the '30's of tuberculosis because they had an infected cow. Everyone had a cow and everyone drank raw milk but there were definitely people who died doing it.
Here you can sell raw milk but you have to qualify as a Grade A dairy even if you only have one cow. You also are required to test the cows for everything under the sun. And still occasionally they get some kid sick.

Ya sure you betcha Dave. But dontcha know it's just not a problem. Folks have been doin it for thousands of years. I read that on the internet so it must be true!

 

[cow pollinater]

I have seen WAAAAY to many cows come out of the barn looking healthy enough that the milkers wouldn't suspect a thing and they're downers before the next shift gets to them and dead before the day is over and their milk is already down the road. Percentage wise it's way less than a half a percent of the cows I see... but it only takes ONE.
I myself will have raw milk on occasion but after twelve years of sticking my hand up a cows butt I could pretty much arm a sick cow and lick my glove and still not get whatever she has. :lol: A child's immune system cannot handle what mine can.

 

[jdman1952]

Wow, good thing I wasn't eating, but I understand where you are coming from CP.

 

[orton]

who checks to see if you stop @ 500 gal/month?

 

[Arkansas]

I looked it up, seems to be a few deaths from it 12 yrs ago.. But most are from improper sanitation. Have you looked up pasteurized milk? May be very surprised to learn that Pasteurized milk has killed just as many and pasteurized milk also has had 3 times more kids born with birth defects and also a lot born slow to use a better term... Pasteurized Milk 203 cases of illness in 2012 and Raw milk 112 illness for the year.. Cases of Death 2012 alone there are 3 cases in Pasteurized Milk and Raw milk there hasn't been a death in 12 yrs.. I realize that the majority of population drinks pasteurized milk so its hard to make a true comparison. But the CDC has been covering up for the big time milk corporations like Prairie Farms for years and now the CDC is being subpoenaed to court over alot of it.. Saying they must release the true facts about both sides.. And seems to be that Raw milk is best for all according to there findings.. I don't know how true this is or if its been misconstrued or not so you will have to do the looking into it yourself. The more I read the more I see it says its dangerous and the more I see saying its great.. So I guess its just gonna have to be more of a personal choice to drink it or not..

 

[TexasBred]

I have seen WAAAAY to many cows come out of the barn looking healthy enough that the milkers wouldn't suspect a thing and they're downers before the next shift gets to them and dead before the day is over and their milk is already down the road. Percentage wise it's way less than a half a percent of the cows I see... but it only takes ONE.
I myself will have raw milk on occasion but after twelve years of sticking my hand up a cows butt I could pretty much arm a sick cow and lick my glove and still not get whatever she has. :lol: A child's immune system cannot handle what mine can.

Cause of death would make a big difference. I've seen cattle milk, walk out of the barn and drop dead. Main cause. Heat exhaustion and/or uterine infection. Doesn't affect the milk other than SSC may be a bit elevated.

Actually raw milk taken from a permitted dairy operation is much cleaner than that from farmer Brown's old milk cow milked into a galvanized bucket and "toted" back to the house. Milking equipment is sterilized before and after every milking. Bulk storage tanks are sterilized as are the milk tankers that transport the milk. Milk is colder on the farm than it will ever be again.

 

[cow pollinater]

Cause of death would make a big difference.

In the herd that I was thinking about when I posted that it was salmonilla but I've seen quite a few get pretty sick with coli from milking dirty cows and the milk was gone before anyone ever figured it out. :yuck:

 

[john250]

I looked it up, seems to be a few deaths from it 12 yrs ago.. But most are from improper sanitation. Have you looked up pasteurized milk? May be very surprised to learn that Pasteurized milk has killed just as many and pasteurized milk also has had 3 times more kids born with birth defects and also a lot born slow to use a better term... Pasteurized Milk 203 cases of illness in 2012 and Raw milk 112 illness for the year.. Cases of Death 2012 alone there are 3 cases in Pasteurized Milk and Raw milk there hasn't been a death in 12 yrs.. I realize that the majority of population drinks pasteurized milk so its hard to make a true comparison. But the CDC has been covering up for the big time milk corporations like Prairie Farms for years and now the CDC is being subpoenaed to court over alot of it.. Saying they must release the true facts about both sides.. And seems to be that Raw milk is best for all according to there findings.. I don't know how true this is or if its been misconstrued or not so you will have to do the looking into it yourself. The more I read the more I see it says its dangerous and the more I see saying its great.. So I guess its just gonna have to be more of a personal choice to drink it or not..

Is this all CDC data? (I'm to lazy to go to their website) 300 million people in the US, most of whom drink milk of the "factory" variety. 203 illnesses is nothing. I don't know how many people drink raw milk, But I'm pretty sure it is a lot lower number. So 123 got sick.
If the farmer is selling, and people are buying, I really don't want to put government in the middle. But, I'm happy that restaurants are inspected and can be shut down by the health dept.
Really good Dairymen are certifiably Obsessive-Compulsive. I figure this will bring some newbies into the market, for good or bad.

 

[Jogeephus]

I looked it up, seems to be a few deaths from it 12 yrs ago.. But most are from improper sanitation. Have you looked up pasteurized milk? May be very surprised to learn that Pasteurized milk has killed just as many and pasteurized milk also has had 3 times more kids born with birth defects and also a lot born slow to use a better term... Pasteurized Milk 203 cases of illness in 2012 and Raw milk 112 illness for the year.. Cases of Death 2012 alone there are 3 cases in Pasteurized Milk and Raw milk there hasn't been a death in 12 yrs.. I realize that the majority of population drinks pasteurized milk so its hard to make a true comparison. But the CDC has been covering up for the big time milk corporations like Prairie Farms for years and now the CDC is being subpoenaed to court over alot of it.. Saying they must release the true facts about both sides.. And seems to be that Raw milk is best for all according to there findings.. I don't know how true this is or if its been misconstrued or not so you will have to do the looking into it yourself. The more I read the more I see it says its dangerous and the more I see saying its great.. So I guess its just gonna have to be more of a personal choice to drink it or not..

Is this all CDC data? (I'm to lazy to go to their website) 300 million people in the US, most of whom drink milk of the "factory" variety. 203 illnesses is nothing. I don't know how many people drink raw milk, But I'm pretty sure it is a lot lower number. So 123 got sick.
If the farmer is selling, and people are buying, I really don't want to put government in the middle. But, I'm happy that restaurants are inspected and can be shut down by the health dept.
Really good Dairymen are certifiably Obsessive-Compulsive. I figure this will bring some newbies into the market, for good or bad.

Might also be worth noting that half of the 203 that got sick probably poisoned themselves and were just looking to get a big check from Big AG. Can't forget, need a check, call 1-800-Law-Need. You deserve it. They owe it to you and unlike the lotto it won't cost you a dime to try.

 

[TexasBred]

Cause of death would make a big difference.

In the herd that I was thinking about when I posted that it was salmonilla but I've seen quite a few get pretty sick with coli from milking dirty cows and the milk was gone before anyone ever figured it out. :yuck:

The lab should pick that up...if they didn't shame on them. Otherwise the guy should be off grade for high SCC , SPC and PI Counts. A well run dairy ships much higher quality milk than any mom and pop milking a few head by hand.

 

[Limomike]

and therein lies the problem![/quote]

NEVER has been a problem. only good milk that thousands have drank for years and years.[/quote]
Um, it has been a problem. A huge problem. Look up the number of deaths from food born illnesses before the pasteurized milk laws vs. after. The numbers are scary. Drinking milk from ones own cow is one thing. Bottling and selling it to the public is quite another.[/quote]

I wasnt saying it hasnt been a problem anywhere, I was stating at the dairy farm close to where i live, it has NOT been a problem at all.
Go back and read what Arkansas posted. Its the truth.

 

[Jogeephus]

The way I see it there should be a tiered set of regulatory standards. One set for those people or companies who are faceless to the public and package their products to be sold across the state or country and another set for those in the local community. I don't think the federal or the state governments should have any say so on what we do within our own communities and if you have a cow that you slaughter on your farm then you should be allowed to sell portions or all of it to your friends and neighbors without any interference from the government.

Afterall, it is my choice and no one is forcing me to buy meat or whatever from you. And if I know you and trust that you are doing things correctly then why not allow me this simple freedom?

Personally, I think the food industry has done a great job keeping things safe but I also feel this has limited the food selections we have available and I think it has hurt the local economy.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

The way I see it there should be a tiered set of regulatory standards. One set for those people or companies who are faceless to the public and package their products to be sold across the state or country and another set for those in the local community. I don't think the federal or the state governments should have any say so on what we do within our own communities and if you have a cow that you slaughter on your farm then you should be allowed to sell portions or all of it to your friends and neighbors without any interference from the government.

Afterall, it is my choice and no one is forcing me to buy meat or whatever from you. And if I know you and trust that you are doing things correctly then why not allow me this simple freedom?

Personally, I think the food industry has done a great job keeping things safe but I also feel this has limited the food selections we have available and I think it has hurt the local economy.

I probably agree with 99% of what you post and I agree with most of what you posted above. I'm not educated enough in the food industry to pretend to solve all their problems, but I have a problem just opening up un pasteurized milk for sale willy nilly with the major consumers being children. Maybe I shouldn't feel this way, and parents should have the right to choose what's best for their kids. I feel that way in so many other areas, it should apply here as well. But I hate all the miss information.




More generally, the issue with safety is this, there is no sterile milk. It doesn't exist, it can't exist. The clean milk just has numbers below levels deemed to be pathogenic. Pasteurization does not make milk sterile. It just lowers the numbers further, by short term heating then quick cooling. It creates a product that will last on the shelf longer and is overall safer- even earlier in cases of severe contamination.

Those of you drinking whole milk, I imagine it was fresh correct? It didn't sit on the shelf for days and give bacteria time to replicate? Milk is a great medium for bactrial growth. It is in fact a medium used by labs to purposefully grow some bacteria. The issue with milk is getting it to the public. If everyone had a cow, it is less of a problem. You then don't have an issue of storage, transport. But that is not our situation. Plus you add the amount of milk that gets mixed together in large dairies. Potential for harm shoots up dramatically.

Some general recommendations should be made if fresh milk is to be sold. (different than laws, but gives people standards to educate themselves with). A very short expiration point should be expected, leading to the understanding that frequent purchases would be necessary. Inspections of farms and milk should have a much higher rating before considering purchase,and the lab values should be readily available. A release form stating the potential risks being taken should be signed to protect both parties, informed purchasing. Including the statement that milk contaminated with listeria, tuberculosis or ecoli can be deadly to children.

Arkansas, there is no way pasteurization has a higher risk. As stated, it does not make milk completely sterile. However, if it had not been performed, the number of pathogenic bacteria would have been substantially higher. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare food born illness rates prior to pasteurization to post. Even prior to medern periods, there was a tremendous difference. Research tuberculosis in England and the number of deaths due to contaminated unpasteurized milk.
You can't get milk to the masses without it.

There are tons of other products the process is used in as well. Not sure why they aren't being challenged as well?