Purebred Angus bulls without papers

[jscunn]

Good point, bright raven he has posted about other bulls.

 

[NEFarmwife]

We've been extremely happy with our SAV offspring. Some win, some lose but overall... very satisfied. They're great when you crossbreed them.

We have so much SAV now, we've started moving other directions but with that, has also been becoming more informed when it comes to genomics. With our program changing, so has our knowledge of EPDs and their usefulness as a tool to move them in the direction we need them to go.

To the discussion on "salesmen" and their selling etiqutte, I beg all of you to call Herbster and speak with him if you never have. He'll speak with you for an hour and not make you feel there is anyone more important he needs to speak with next. And when he says something, he truly believes it. There is no intent to deceive. He's not marketing, he's sharing his passion for cattle. That to me, is a real salesman.

And as I write that, I realize that's a lot of regulars here. I bet I could sit on the phone for an hour with many of you and just learn and listen. That's what I'm here for.

 

[gizmom]

Branded

I guess everyone uses what they feel works for them. On our operation 35% to 45% of the bull calves get to stay bulls. it doesn't matter weather the calf is AI sired, an ET calf or out of the clean-up bull, they are all judged using the same selection criteria. If they don't meet the criteria they are steered. We keep evaluating them as we develop them a few more get culled during this phase sometimes performance drops off sometimes they develop a nasty attitude, both will get them moved to the cull pen. At 14 months we have a BSE done on all that have met our standards, we price them based on pedigree, performance, EPD's and phenotype. Some of our herd bull sired calves are priced on the high end some low depending on all the afore mentioned factors. Just because a calf is AI sired doesn't make him the best calf in the pen, not even if he is a America son. If you don't have faith in the progeny of you walking bulls you may need to re-evaluate your program. We won't sell a bull we wouldn't use, my mamma always taught me to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, we strive to keep that golden rule as the cornerstone of our dealings with our customers. If I wouldn't want to use one of my bulls for any reason I don't need to be selling him. I don't see a huge divide between purebred breeders and commercial breeders. I see differences certainly but I see more things that we have in common. As for me when a commercial customer is talking I want to hear what he has to say, I have learned so much from just listening to commercial customers. Truth is the commercial breeder doesn't give a rats behind about all your fancy AI bulls, he just wants a bull that will meet his criteria of performance and phenotype and if he is planning to retain heifers pedigree. My commercial customers want to look at the cow herd, see the dam or maternal sister of the bull they are purchasing. We are first generation Angus breeders, and still have a lot to learn when it comes to cattle, however we figured out A long time ago that treating customers with respect is the best way to keep them.

Gizmom

 

[NEFarmwife]

Branded

I guess everyone uses what they feel works for them. On our operation 35% to 45% of the bull calves get to stay bulls. it doesn't matter weather the calf is AI sired, an ET calf or out of the clean-up bull, they are all judged using the same selection criteria. If they don't meet the criteria they are steered. We keep evaluating them as we develop them a few more get culled during this phase sometimes performance drops off sometimes they develop a nasty attitude, both will get them moved to the cull pen. At 14 months we have a BSE done on all that have met our standards, we price them based on pedigree, performance, EPD's and phenotype. Some of our herd bull sired calves are priced on the high end some low depending on all the afore mentioned factors. Just because a calf is AI sired doesn't make him the best calf in the pen, not even if he is a America son. If you don't have faith in the progeny of you walking bulls you may need to re-evaluate your program. We won't sell a bull we wouldn't use, my mamma always taught me to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, we strive to keep that golden rule as the cornerstone of our dealings with our customers. If I wouldn't want to use one of my bulls for any reason I don't need to be selling him. I don't see a huge divide between purebred breeders and commercial breeders. I see differences certainly but I see more things that we have in common. As for me when a commercial customer is talking I want to hear what he has to say, I have learned so much from just listening to commercial customers. Truth is the commercial breeder doesn't give a rats behind about all your fancy AI bulls, he just wants a bull that will meet his criteria of performance and phenotype and if he is planning to retain heifers pedigree. My commercial customers want to look at the cow herd, see the dam or maternal sister of the bull they are purchasing. We are first generation Angus breeders, and still have a lot to learn when it comes to cattle, however we figured out A long time ago that treating customers with respect is the best way to keep them.

Gizmom

This! Thank you Gizmom! To a "T".

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded, you pick the bull test and we'll both put a bull in the test this spring or fall. Who's ever bull comes up short has to pay for the test for both bulls. We only have 4 bulls out of 35 left that could into a spring test. But have quite a few that will make the fall - winter bull evaluation tests. If you want to put some extra boot on the test I'm willing to do that also. I'm so sure that one of our bulls will test out better in the Tifton Bull Evaluation test I'll pay your test fee, travel and $5k for the bull.
You think to much of your bulls, and yourself. I've personally read enough of your BS. Put up or shut up.

An eating contest?

His guys are seasoned pros.

Dares never turn out well, but let me think about this. I have a few right now that might work, I would not want to use anything sired by Stone Gate in this throwdown if I agree to it. I think one of our high input SAV sons with top 1% RADG and YW might work.

As TT said, I would want to send down one of our boys that has a healthy appetite, maybe an International son

This is probably the most interesting thing I've heard yet on here.

 

[CattleMan1920]

An eating contest?

His guys are seasoned pros.

At the most recent Florida bull test there were 29 Angus bulls qualified for the sale, (test index of 90 or greater and pass a BSE) of the those 15 of them are sired by an SAV bull. The sires were mostly Renown, Regard, Seedstock, Pedigree, Platinum, Resource, Sensation. The last 11 bulls (Ranked 61 or worse) 9 of them were sired by an SAV bull. I think TG has more of a sure thing than you think. The average rank of the Angus bulls was 50, average rank of an SAV sired Angus bull 57.6.

I might be wrong but I would not assume Branded is limited to SAV bulls. In fact, he has a broad range of Angus genetics represented in his herd based on what he has posted.

You would be very correct on that statement Ron.

Maybe I should use one the Byergo Titus sons we have on the way. I heard he has a decent rate of gain, and his 205 is respectable.

https://youtu.be/kJij5BlfHV0

Or maybe a Connealy Capitalist son we have on the way, or maybe a SydGen Enhance son, although he might not gain like A Titus son. Who knows? I almost forgot about our Denver calves on the way. I know Denver progeny performs well. Lots of choices.

 

[gcreekrch]

Back to the original post... there is of course a market for bulls without papers. I think you mistakenly believe papers make a bull better, and I would dispute that. As a little commercial guy, I try to buy the best bulls. That means that often times the bulls I bring home do not have papers. Often times they are crossbred.
But if you are going to keep bulls of lesser quality and market them as "not my best work but better than what you have", I don't think it's a good idea.

Agreed, of the 50 sires here, only 10 of them can claim to have papers. The rest were raised under our "Who's Your Daddy?" breeding program or were bought without. As long as they and their progeny are easy fleshing, moderate cattle that gain on snowballs and promises I don't care that they are not aristocrats. The bulls are unaware of this conundrum and the cows don't care a bit

A good friend sells 150 hybrid Sim x Angus, Red Angus and Hereford and also Gelbvieh X Angus bulls yearly .Most years they average more per head sale price than their papered relations.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If this is stereotypical of how "big time" breeders treat potential customers, I think I'll pass. The guy we bought our cows from treated us great. Invited us over to watch her get AId. The only experience I've had with the biggest breeder in our area, who happens to be in the Hereford HOF, treated me with disdain and annoyance because he didn't know who I was. Which is funny because we never know how deep someone's pockets are. I'm seeing a trend.

I can almost assure you that the breeders around me don't take the time to show each buyer the dam, and spend 1-2 hours discussing the bull and what goals the buyer is looking to achieve. We do that at our operation. If you want "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" then head to the sale ring. We sell everything privately.

You confuse my abrasive nature with poor customer service, you could not be more incorrect.

I never disrespect serious buyers, never have, never will.

I've been known to give new buyers Multimin, bags of Vitaferm, the feed we use, heck even straw for the trailer ride home. We Eprinex and Multimin the bulls moments before they leave. Why do it? I don't know, I like the people we deal with, I've noticed, at least with the folks I deal with, that the day they pick up their new bull is a big day for them, I want our buyers to pull out of the front gate with a sense of satisfaction, and to feel like they were more than just another sale,

Let me repeat, our buyers are treated well.

 

[Bright Raven]

Branded, you pick the bull test and we'll both put a bull in the test this spring or fall. Who's ever bull comes up short has to pay for the test for both bulls. We only have 4 bulls out of 35 left that could into a spring test. But have quite a few that will make the fall - winter bull evaluation tests. If you want to put some extra boot on the test I'm willing to do that also. I'm so sure that one of our bulls will test out better in the Tifton Bull Evaluation test I'll pay your test fee, travel and $5k for the bull.
You think to much of your bulls, and yourself. I've personally read enough of your BS. Put up or shut up.

Dares never turn out well, but let me think about this. I have a few right now that might work, I would not want to use anything sired by Stone Gate in this throwdown if I agree to it. I think one of our high input SAV sons with top 1% RADG and YW might work.

As TT said, I would want to send down one of our boys that has a healthy appetite, maybe an International son

This is probably the most interesting thing I've heard yet on here.

Be cautious of feed efficiency testing! If you read some of the University studies, these test have some inbuilt flaws when doing "head-to-head" tests.

If you take two 12 month old bulls; one is as skinny as a blacksnake and the other looks like the jolly fat man, who do you think has the most potential to get the highest gains per pound of input?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Branded, you pick the bull test and we'll both put a bull in the test this spring or fall. Who's ever bull comes up short has to pay for the test for both bulls. We only have 4 bulls out of 35 left that could into a spring test. But have quite a few that will make the fall - winter bull evaluation tests. If you want to put some extra boot on the test I'm willing to do that also. I'm so sure that one of our bulls will test out better in the Tifton Bull Evaluation test I'll pay your test fee, travel and $5k for the bull.
You think to much of your bulls, and yourself. I've personally read enough of your BS. Put up or shut up.

Dares never turn out well, but let me think about this. I have a few right now that might work, I would not want to use anything sired by Stone Gate in this throwdown if I agree to it. I think one of our high input SAV sons with top 1% RADG and YW might work.

As TT said, I would want to send down one of our boys that has a healthy appetite, maybe an International son

This is probably the most interesting thing I've heard yet on here.

Be cautious of feed efficiency testing! If you read some of the University studies, these test have some inbuilt flaws when doing "head-to-head" tests.

If you take two 12 month old bulls; one is as skinny as a blacksnake and the other looks like the jolly fat man, who do you think has the most potential to get the highest gains per pound on input?

Do they limit-feed steers on feedlots? Portion control in other words.

 

[Bright Raven]

Dares never turn out well, but let me think about this. I have a few right now that might work, I would not want to use anything sired by Stone Gate in this throwdown if I agree to it. I think one of our high input SAV sons with top 1% RADG and YW might work.

As TT said, I would want to send down one of our boys that has a healthy appetite, maybe an International son

This is probably the most interesting thing I've heard yet on here.

Be cautious of feed efficiency testing! If you read some of the University studies, these test have some inbuilt flaws when doing "head-to-head" tests.

If you take two 12 month old bulls; one is as skinny as a blacksnake and the other looks like the jolly fat man, who do you think has the most potential to get the highest gains per pound on input?

Do they limit-feed steers on feedlots? Portion control in other words.

IDK. There are many systems or programs that measure gains on a per pound input basis. There are now vendors that sell entire electronic systems to get efficiency data.

There are variables involved. You have to set up your system to control those variables. Some systems employ free choice some provide limited portions.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I hear people say Limousine cattle are "efficient" but it doesn't seem to boost their overall popularity in the marketplace.

 

[Bright Raven]

I hear people say Limousine cattle are "efficient" but it doesn't seem to boost their overall popularity in the marketplace.

Are you talking about their feed input efficiency or efficiency in jumping the sides of the handling facilities? ;-)

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I hear people say Limousine cattle are "efficient" but it doesn't seem to boost their overall popularity in the marketplace.

Are you talking about their feed input efficiency or efficiency in jumping the sides of the handling facilities? ;-)

Strictly referring to feed efficiency. I've got plenty of Angus jumping out of my facilities already.

 

[Bright Raven]

I hear people say Limousine cattle are "efficient" but it doesn't seem to boost their overall popularity in the marketplace.

Are you talking about their feed input efficiency or efficiency in jumping the sides of the handling facilities? ;-)

Strictly referring to feed efficiency. I've got plenty of Angus jumping out of my facilities already.

Convert to Simmental. The only problem with them is they are so laid back, they get halfway down the alley and fall asleep.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Only the overconditioned pampered ones do that.

 

[Bright Raven]

Only the overconditioned pampered ones do that.

Well. They are pampered here. I do have about 5 out of my 20 that are showing some signs of getting a little pulled down with these huge fall calves on them. Most are still over-conditioned on 8 % protein hay but I can actually see the pin and hooks on a couple especially the first calvers.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Branded, you pick the bull test and we'll both put a bull in the test this spring or fall. Who's ever bull comes up short has to pay for the test for both bulls. We only have 4 bulls out of 35 left that could into a spring test. But have quite a few that will make the fall - winter bull evaluation tests. If you want to put some extra boot on the test I'm willing to do that also. I'm so sure that one of our bulls will test out better in the Tifton Bull Evaluation test I'll pay your test fee, travel and $5k for the bull.
You think to much of your bulls, and yourself. I've personally read enough of your BS. Put up or shut up.

Dares never turn out well, but let me think about this. I have a few right now that might work, I would not want to use anything sired by Stone Gate in this throwdown if I agree to it. I think one of our high input SAV sons with top 1% RADG and YW might work.

As TT said, I would want to send down one of our boys that has a healthy appetite, maybe an International son

This is probably the most interesting thing I've heard yet on here.

Be cautious of feed efficiency testing! If you read some of the University studies, these test have some inbuilt flaws when doing "head-to-head" tests.

If you take two 12 month old bulls; one is as skinny as a blacksnake and the other looks like the jolly fat man, who do you think has the most potential to get the highest gains per pound of input?

Very true that's what we blame the failures on. Some bulls just won't finish as fast and they can be ET brothers. My main point that I'm trying to make to Branded, is every bull that makes it to a bull test sale is a good bull, even if he sells for $2k or less. I missed the University of Florida bull sale this year so I don't know for sure, but I imagine a few bulls sold there for less than $2k. My guess is there will be 2+ registered and HD 50K tested Angus bulls that bring less than $2k in the upcoming UGA bull sale on March 6. I sure hope I'm wrong, because we have the last bull to sell.

 

[Caustic Burno]

The only continental breed I have seen excel in this environment is Charolais.
Most were in a breed up program the English I would say Herefords followed by Angus the Shorthorn suffer much more.
Probably the best overall bovine for this part of the world is the Brangus followed by the Braford.
With all that said no matter the poster or the breed in 2019 we don't have one size fits all no matter our biases. There are no bad breeds IMO just bad management for the environment.

 

[bse]

If this is stereotypical of how "big time" breeders treat potential customers, I think I'll pass. The guy we bought our cows from treated us great. Invited us over to watch her get AId. The only experience I've had with the biggest breeder in our area, who happens to be in the Hereford HOF, treated me with disdain and annoyance because he didn't know who I was. Which is funny because we never know how deep someone's pockets are. I'm seeing a trend.

I can almost assure you that the breeders around me don't take the time to show each buyer the dam, and spend 1-2 hours discussing the bull and what goals the buyer is looking to achieve. We do that at our operation. If you want "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" then head to the sale ring. We sell everything privately.

You confuse my abrasive nature with poor customer service, you could not be more incorrect.

I never disrespect serious buyers, never have, never will.

I've been known to give new buyers Multimin, bags of Vitaferm, the feed we use, heck even straw for the trailer ride home. We Eprinex and Multimin the bulls moments before they leave. Why do it? I don't know, I like the people we deal with, I've noticed, at least with the folks I deal with, that the day they pick up their new bull is a big day for them, I want our buyers to pull out of the front gate with a sense of satisfaction, and to feel like they were more than just another sale,

Let me repeat, our buyers are treated well.

I think you talk out of both sides of your mouth, one post you really dont care what a customer thinks or wants, your the only breeder in KY and you have the market cornered. Then your sending a customer home with hundreds of dollars of product, and with this thread not wanting to spend 12 bucks for reg, and transfer. You have mean plumbers.
A challenge was issued, nobody wants to hear the different choices you have, just pick one, not one you may have coming next fall, he said now(spring test) or this fall so calves are on the ground, Grit id make sure hes the breeder and owner on the papers!!!
Ive been lucky and met 2 Angus breeders, Gizmon being 1 and she hit the nail on the head.
Its about customer service, and its said on here the 1 guy doesnt like Angus breeders( dont think we should all be judged the same)but its the greater than thow and i know it all attitude.
just one more point, theres nobody in this world that could come and tell me anything about my cattle that would make me cry!!!!! and i have thick skin and would listen to any criticism, but at the end of the day there mine and my breeding not the likes of anyone else. Im a leader with my herd not a follower !!!!!!!!!!!!