Pulling the bull out

[KenB]

me thinks a thread is fixing tobe locked.its a sad day when a young whippersnapper tells some1 thats been around cows all their lives that they dont know nothing.now im an old bull.but this whippersnapper needs to watch what she says in respect for the older members of this board.

Well I am a quite old bull myself, and I take the whippersnappers advice any day. Just because someone is older does not make them experts. :tiphat:

 

[milkmaid]

BB -- first of all, I did not tell msscamp she didn't know anything. I'm perfectly willing to learn from those both older and younger than myself if they have beneficial knowledge. Secondly, while I know msscamp is a real person as I've talked to her on the phone before... I also know that there have been certain posts brought to my attention lately which make me question how much msscamp does know, and how big a role she actually played in her parents' cattle operation.

I don't care if someone chooses to run their operation differently than the next person, but for someone to insist that having the vet out to preg check is a waste of time and money, and that the way 'it's always been done' is the only way and the best way, and that someday I'll see the light... that I do have a problem with. Especially when preg checking has been proven to save ranchers time and money, and as stated earlier, "a world wide accepted good practice."

Real respect is earned, and if someone has led me to believe one thing and I find out it's not true... they've lost my respect, and I don't care how much older or younger they are than me. (Is that any different than what anyone else does? Shall we discuss the amount of respect TNMasterBeefProducer gets from anyone on this forum? -- and I'm sure he's older than most of us.) I don't have a problem with people being naive about cows so long as they're honest about it.

(BTW Ken, just saw your post -- thanks. ;-))

 

[bigbull338]

so your whole issue is having a vet out once a yr to preg check cows.we did that for about 6 months after we went in the dairy business.then my dad decided it was a waste of time an money todo so.the only time we ever preg checked any cows is if they was on the cull list.an those where cows that we could not bump in the barn.

 

[milkmaid]

BB -- no. My issue is not so much with the topic as with the attitude that's displayed. I bought a group of heifers from a dairy that managed exactly as you described, and they were some nice calves. Most of them settled first service. Manage however you like - I don't care - just don't dis my way of doing things simply because it's not the way you'd do it. Does that make sense?

I'm getting on a plane in the morning so y'all might not hear from me for a day or so.

 

[msscamp]

Good luck, and maybe when you've been doing this for 50 years we can have this conversation again

I know its not good manners to ask a lady her age, but how old are you?

I'm 49, and my Dad is 76 - it is his experience and knowledge I was referring to, not mine. He's forgotten more about cattle than I will ever know.

 

[msscamp]

Good luck, and maybe when you've been doing this for 50 years we can have this conversation again

I know its not good manners to ask a lady her age, but how old are you?

You're fine - I'm 49, and my Dad is 76. It is his experience and knowledge I was referring to, not mine. He's forgotten more about cattle than I - and a number of people on these boards - will ever know.

 

[KNERSIE]

I know its not good manners to ask a lady her age, but how old are you?

You're fine - I'm 49, and my Dad is 76. It is his experience and knowledge I was referring to, not mine.

My grandfather trained oxen since he was 12 and he was 12 in 1924, he farmed with cattle all his life and I learned alot from him, my father farmed with cattle all his life and he is 70 and I learned a lot from him. I have been involved in cattle all my life and learned some through my own faults, unfortunately all this doesn't mean I can say I have 84 years experience in cattle. ;-)

He's forgotten more about cattle than I - and a number of people on these boards - will ever know

.

I don't doubt that, I doubt that his method is the best method for all circumstances

All this is getting silly and I normally wouldn't butt in, but I have a pet peeve against older people talking down to younger people (who in this case has a lot of knowledge to offer) and in this instance it is how I perceived it.

I like it very much hearing how things was done in the olden days, there is alot to be learned from that even today so hearing thoughts contradictory to my train of thought doesn't bother me at all. We must just be open to others thoughts and be careful how we come across when we disagree.

Ps I edited it for poor mathematics

 

[novatech]

There was a time, not all that long ago, relatively speaking, that if you said you could run your arm up a cows rear and tell it was pregnant they would have burned you for being a witch.
I have a deep respect for the old timers and the ways things were done in the past, as I have lived a lot of it. Today I look forward to new and innovative ways of doing things and applying technology to what I do. Some of it works for me some of it does not.
It has always amazed me how we grasp new things in most areas of our lives, medicine, computers, industry, etc. but when it comes to agriculture, cattle especially, we tend to be very slow to accept change and technology. EPS, genetics, and even handling of cattle just as examples.

 

[Keren]

This has been an interesting and entertaining thread. I was a bit worried it would get locked, so I thought I'd put in my two bob quickly.

I routinely scan for pregnancy, but I also do the observe and record thing, and observe and record when the animal is due to cycle again. So I do both methods which have been mentioned, and here is my justification for doing it that way.

Recently I had a doe wean a kid, she was put into the mating mob. She was served by a buck who I know is fertile. 21 days later I saw her served again. 21 days later I saw her served again. Normally the buck is only in for 1 month here, but due to a funny set of circumstances this particular doe was in with a buck for four cycles, and she was bred every time.

So she went in the cull paddock. I didnt scan her, because I had seen her return to oestrus so many times. About 6 weeks ago I took the dogs to bring in the culls from the paddock into the yards to load up and take to the slaughterhouse. Noticed the doe in the corner attacking the dog which she doesnt usually do ... I went over there and she was kidding. When I worked out the dates she had taken on the first service. By observation alone, I wouldnt have picked that she was pregnant, even that morning when I had looked through them she wasnt bagged up at all. In two hours she had kidded with a huge bag and a nice little black doe kid. If I'd scanned her, I would have picked it up. I guess I'm lucky I didnt send them off a week earlier like I had planned to, because that way I would have slaughtered a perfectly good breeding doe along with an almost born doe kid.






Other situations in which the double up method has worked for me is one angora doe, who has very silent heats so I cant detect them unless there is a buck around, and if she is in with a buck she only stands for about 20 minutes, and always very early in the morning. If I blink, I miss it. So often she doesnt get written down, but she gets confirmed on the scan. She can be bred at 7am and by 8am the buck is not interested.

 

[KNERSIE]

Along the same lines as your doe story Keren, I have a cow that I AId a few years ago, 21 days later she was standing for the bull, another 21 days later she was standing again for the bull, didn't see her standing the next heat.

Come calving time she calved 10 days before her AI due date with twin heifers, normal size for twins and definately not 52 days premature.

 

[ALX.]

FWIW, dairies don't need Johnes or fertility problems either, and if they culled hard enough they wouldn't have those problems. I don't understand what your point is.

You just said the whole shebang right there. They will never cull hard enough if she's been a heavy milking cow, or a heavy milking line.Fertility was not their concern until it became a problem.

Being able to stick your arm up a cows arse and say open or not, blood tests for pregnancy, - these things in the wrong hands can lead to across the board reductions in fertility. In the wrong hands.

This is not an old vs new discussion to my mind, it's an interesting management discussion with some valuable points of view expressed.

 

[TexasBred]

Beef doesn't need dairies Johnes or fertility problems.

I agree wholeheartedly, however preg checking is a pro-active way of avoiding fertility problems. It doesn't cost much and I can see how it can save lots of hay in your colder northern climates, the same apply for my hot dry climate.

It isn't an impossible skill to learn, most AI schools have an course which can be extended by a day or two to cover palpation as well. Actually if you AI you can read a bit and learn the rest yourself.

I honestly don't see the sense in arguing against a world wide accepted good practice.

Agreed. I spend a fair bit of time/money at my vet clinic, but I daresay I make more off one calf that you beef guys can with half a dozen... and afterwards I've learned something from each trip to the clinic.

FWIW, dairies don't need Johnes or fertility problems either, and if they culled hard enough they wouldn't have those problems. I don't understand what your point is.

Culling is just another tool that must be utilized but utilized properly. I've culled cows that were 4 month bred and at the same time put a cow back in the herd that was open, in hopes that she was bred. But you'd have to know all the details to understand the "why" of what I did....Most breeding problems have more to environment in a dairy operation than anything else. You're asking a cow eating 55-60 lbs. of dry matter to produce 100 lbs. of milk, breed back, maintain body condition, do this for 300 days and then start it all over again. Often in sub zero weather or temperatures well above 100 degrees. Many cattle conceive only to abort quickly due to stress. Cull rates on well managed dairy operations already run as high as 40%...those are $2500 cattle you're selling for $750-800....

As for preg checking I always worked off my DHIA records and checked everything 60 days past her first insemination. Some I would keep and continue to get bred...other's were headed for the kill cow sale as soon as producton dropped below a profitable level. A person can learn to palpate in one day....get fairly good at it in a few weeks and darn good at it in a few months as long as he is palpating on a daily basis and begins with cattle known to be at least 4 months bred. Takes some efford and management but actually enjoyable. As for bumping calves....just gotta wait too long before you can bump one and then it's gotta be big...a lot of good cattle have been culled carrying 5 month calves just because the owner didn't know how to pregnancy check his cattle.

 

[angus9259]

We talk about preg checking not being worth the time and money . . . how much time and money are we actually talking about here???

My vet charges $50 for a farm call and $2 a head to sleeve a cow so for 25 cows per day that $4 per head. They're already going through the chute to vaccinate and wean and castrate so there's no additional time lost.

I do watch my cattle and record who's in heat but I would never never never not pay that $4 per head to have the vet give me the extra data - it's cheap and information is always helpful.

 

[ALX.]

As for bumping calves....just gotta wait too long before you can bump one and then it's gotta be big...a lot of good cattle have been culled carrying 5 month calves just because the owner didn't know how to pregnancy check his cattle.

Not in a beef system as described by msscamp or myself and others.

 

[Chris H]

As for bumping calves....just gotta wait too long before you can bump one and then it's gotta be big...a lot of good cattle have been culled carrying 5 month calves just because the owner didn't know how to pregnancy check his cattle.

Not in a beef system as described by msscamp or myself and others.

ALX, before we switched from a grain operation to a full time Hereford cow/calf operation running a minimum of 3 breeding pastures, we had a handful of cows for the kids 4-H projects. We watched for cycles/matings, and culled accordingly; we didn't preg check and it worked OK for the most part. We had one cow that was my pride & joy. We almost culled her as open due to repeated cycles. Just before shipping her, the vet was out so we had him check her. She had settled on her first service! Now, under your beef system she would have been culled and we would have lost a great cow.

Your system just isn't practical while running 3 breeding pastures, or working a job in addition to running a herd(not a few cows as a hobby). The cost of doing business has also changed what is the best practice now compared to 'what used to be'.

I think there will always be guys with a handful of cows who never see the economics in paying someone to preg check because they figure they can always cull in the spring if she doesn't calve. But I wouldn't call that a 'beef system'.

 

[WORANCH]

As for bumping calves....just gotta wait too long before you can bump one and then it's gotta be big...a lot of good cattle have been culled carrying 5 month calves just because the owner didn't know how to pregnancy check his cattle.

Not in a beef system as described by msscamp or myself and others.

No but you will feed open cows all winter .
With the price of feed (hay) you can't afford to carry over open cows..

 

[ALX.]

We had one cow that was my pride & joy. We almost culled her as open due to repeated cycles.

So you had a cow that was special, that makes a statement in itself.

Here's the really bad news, in my system when she showed up with a calf at cull time she stayed.Without someones $20 arm insertion.

We must be talking different things. Bull in. Bull out. Cows with calves stay.

 

[WORANCH]

We had one cow that was my pride & joy. We almost culled her as open due to repeated cycles.

So you had a cow that was special, that makes a statement in itself.

Here's the really bad news, in my system when she showed up with a calf at cull time she stayed.Without someones $20 arm insertion.

We must be talking different things. Bull in. Bull out. Cows with calves stay.

So you hold your open cows till spring and then cull?????

 

[angus9259]

We had one cow that was my pride & joy. We almost culled her as open due to repeated cycles.

We must be talking different things. Bull in. Bull out. Cows with calves stay.

$300 to feed a cow from weaning to calving

$20 for a preg check (which is way more than I pay)

1 open cow in 15 pays for the preg checking in your system.

My vet charges $5 once you figure in the farm call.

1 open cow in 60 pays for the preg checking in my system.

It's all about feed costs and vet costs.

 

[milkmaid]

As for bumping calves....just gotta wait too long before you can bump one and then it's gotta be big...a lot of good cattle have been culled carrying 5 month calves just because the owner didn't know how to pregnancy check his cattle.

Not in a beef system as described by msscamp or myself and others.

No but you will feed open cows all winter .
With the price of feed (hay) you can't afford to carry over open cows..

Yep. In my neck of the woods we need 3-4 tons per DRY cow per winter. Hay is now $200/ton no matter what quality or cutting... I'm not sure how people can even afford to keep cows that ARE bred when it costs $800/hd to winter them.

Better have inherited a lot of money from someone in order to run an operation like ALX and msscamp.

And, ALX... when we've all seen cows that never completely dry up and seen one cow claim another's calf it's just not a good plan to say "cows with calves stay."

Unless, perhaps, you only have one cow? that would eliminate that problem.