Presentation-Vet recommendations

[Anonymous]

greybeard said it simple and the best !an i think farmerjan put him in his place. ive had years where control could be minimum and ive went min route on some things an paid the price in the end .grew up around some that didnt do any thing unless they had a problem ,had some vets claim i needed every thing you can think of or pull out of a book then i know some that only recomend mininum unless you have had a problem in the past !every ones situation is diffrent .hell i didnt know any thing about rotational grazeing untill some made a comment thats what i was doing
ohh yea sure !!! i just thought some of the pasture was too short for them and no rain iknew they didnt need to be on it.so i sectioned it off ! in 1980

 

[City Guy]

Chemical de-worming creates strong worms and weak cows. Problem gets worse and more expensive over time. Genetics-genetics-genetics!

Everything is a "chemical". Water is a chemical - a compound of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom. Parasiticides are chemicals but my point is "everything" on the planet is composed of atoms and/or molecules so just drop the word "chemical" in front of de-worming.

Now, de-worming does not create "stronger" parasites. It simply causes the parasite to adapt to the de-worming. It does not create a weaker cow. It creates a healthy cow.

Go to your room and think about this.

PS: as parasites adapt so does man. It creates an incentive for companies to keep ahead of the adaptation of the parasite. That is a good thing.

I went to my room and thought about this. You are correct about everything being chemical, of course. Perhaps I should have said artificial or synthetic. But I am sure you know what I meant.
By makes stronger parasites and weaker cows I was speaking of the parasites ability to resist the treatment-- surely you can understand that building resistance is strengthening. And conversely, a cow relying on constant help from artificial sources in being weaken as her natural resistance atrophies.

Only someone who sell pesticides would consider this spiral a good thing.

 

[Margonme]

Chemical de-worming creates strong worms and weak cows. Problem gets worse and more expensive over time. Genetics-genetics-genetics!

Everything is a "chemical". Water is a chemical - a compound of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom. Parasiticides are chemicals but my point is "everything" on the planet is composed of atoms and/or molecules so just drop the word "chemical" in front of de-worming.

Now, de-worming does not create "stronger" parasites. It simply causes the parasite to adapt to the de-worming. It does not create a weaker cow. It creates a healthy cow.

Go to your room and think about this.

PS: as parasites adapt so does man. It creates an incentive for companies to keep ahead of the adaptation of the parasite. That is a good thing.

I went to my room and thought about this. You are correct about everything being chemical, of course. Perhaps I should have said artificial or synthetic. But I am sure you know what I meant.
By makes stronger parasites and weaker cows I was speaking of the parasites ability to resist the treatment-- surely you can understand that building resistance is strengthening. And conversely, a cow relying on constant help from artificial sources in being weaken as her natural resistance atrophies.

Only someone who sell pesticides would consider this spiral a good thing.

Parasites don't get "stronger", they adapt their metabolism to resist a parasiticide they are repeatedly exposed to. Like bacteria that develop resistance to an antibiotic, parasites develop resistance.

Cows treated on a regular basis with parasiticides do not become weaker and their immune system does not "atrophy". In fact, good health promotes good immune response.

I think there is too much concern about parasites and bacteria becoming resistant. Pharmaceutical companies are continuously learning more about pathways for disrupting the metabolism of infectious organisms and parasites. It keeps the wheels of research turning. In my mind, that is a good thing.

 

[City Guy]

Everything is a "chemical". Water is a chemical - a compound of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom. Parasiticides are chemicals but my point is "everything" on the planet is composed of atoms and/or molecules so just drop the word "chemical" in front of de-worming.

Now, de-worming does not create "stronger" parasites. It simply causes the parasite to adapt to the de-worming. It does not create a weaker cow. It creates a healthy cow.

Go to your room and think about this.

PS: as parasites adapt so does man. It creates an incentive for companies to keep ahead of the adaptation of the parasite. That is a good thing.

I went to my room and thought about this. You are correct about everything being chemical, of course. Perhaps I should have said artificial or synthetic. But I am sure you know what I meant.
By makes stronger parasites and weaker cows I was speaking of the parasites ability to









treatment-- surely you can understand that building resistance is strengthening. And conversely, a cow relying on constant help from artificial sources in being weaken as her natural resistance atrophies.

Only someone who sell pesticides would consider this spiral a good thing.

Parasites don't get "stronger", they adapt their metabolism to resist a parasiticide they are repeatedly exposed to. Like bacteria that develop resistance to an antibiotic, parasites develop resistance.

Cows treated on a regular basis with parasiticides do not become weaker and their immune system does not "atrophy". In fact, good health promotes good immune response.

I think there is too much concern about parasites and bacteria becoming resistant. Pharmaceutical companies are continuously learning more about pathways for disrupting the metabolism of infectious organisms and parasites. It keeps the wheels of research turning. In my mind, that is a good thing.

OK, I think I finally understand this. Thanks for bearing with me. Your cattle are stronger as a result of your application of chemical parasiticides to the point that they no longer them. The animals can now fight off the parasites with their own immune responses. Why did I find that so difficult to grasp?

 

[Margonme]

City Guy stated:

Your cattle are stronger as a result of your application of chemical parasiticides to the point that they no longer (need) them. The animals can now fight off the parasites with their own immune responses.

Treating my cattle with a parasiticide that targets lice, warbles, lung worms, tapeworms, round worms, mites, etc. does not make a cow "stronger". By your explanation above, you are using the term stronger to mean more resistant. Using a parasiticide does not make a cow stronger, it makes her more healthy and efficient. Energy and resources she would otherwise utilize to resist parasites are conserved to make the cow more productive. For your information, immunity to worms is never very efficient. Most worm species are far ahead of the host. While immunity to a virus may be very strong, immunity to nematodes for example is limited. Most host simply live with the effects of worms if they are not otherwise treated.

No where did I imply that using any form of parasiticide would result in a cow not requiring periodic treatment. If someone is telling you to simply let the cow develop a natural immunity, then that person has a very poor understanding of the science of parasitology and the nature of the host/parasite relationship.

 

[BRYANT]

City Guy
How many head of cattle do you run and how many years did it take you to get your herd like what you are talking about?
It must have took some very serious culling can you explain the method you used?
thanks KB

 

[City Guy]

Thank You

 

[Margonme]

Thank You

Please look at my post on the thread, "Parasites - City Guy"

 

[City Guy]

I did and that is what I thought I was saying Thank You to.

 

[City Guy]

City Guy
How many head of cattle do you run and how many years did it take you to get your herd like what you are talking about?
It must have took some very serious culling can you explain the method you used?
thanks KB

You know I have no cattle. If I were to start a herd I could do it your way or choose another way. There are producers out there that routinely get 98%+ conception and weaning rates on large numbers of cattle; others never spend a penny for hay or supplements; many never deworm or spray for flies. Many don't even have a mower or sprayer to control weeds. A vet in New Zealand has a 100% success rate with ET. Many have used mob grazing to double or triple their carrying capacity. I'd do what these people are doing.

 

[Margonme]

I did and that is what I thought I was saying Thank You to.

I detect some irony in that City Guy.

May I be so bold as to imply - that is not what you were saying? Regardless, that is not what is important. Here is what is important:

At the mammalian level, in this case Bovines, a producer cannot rely solely on their innate immunity to parasites. In the broad spectrum of parasites, a progressive producer should be encouraged to use state of medicine products for the control of parasites. That is not me preaching. I have attended conferences at which national experts from Universities that excell in parasite research in cattle have made presentations. They all promote the use of parasiticides for the control of parasites in cattle.

Nevertheless, I will take this opportunity to swim against the current and openly commend you for bringing topics of substance to this forum. I don't care whether you have cattle or not. I enjoy the discussions that you initiate. I think you are intelligent and refreshing. Please continue.

 

[BRYANT]

City Guy
How many head of cattle do you run and how many years did it take you to get your herd like what you are talking about?
It must have took some very serious culling can you explain the method you used?
thanks KB

You know I have no cattle. If I were to start a herd I could do it your way or choose another way. There are producers out there that routinely get 98%+ conception and weaning rates on large numbers of cattle; others never spend a penny for hay or supplements; many never deworm or spray for flies. Many don't even have a mower or sprayer to control weeds. A vet in New Zealand has a 100% success rate with ET. Many have used mob grazing to double or triple their carrying capacity. I'd do what these people are doing.

SORRY SIR I did not know that you had no cattle.
It is kind of odd someone telling people about cattle that has none , but maybe you had some in the past, and no I do not know that either.
do you have any kind of live stock ????

 

[M-5]

City Guy
How many head of cattle do you run and how many years did it take you to get your herd like what you are talking about?
It must have took some very serious culling can you explain the method you used?
thanks KB

You know I have no cattle. If I were to start a herd I could do it your way or choose another way. There are producers out there that routinely get 98%+ conception and weaning rates on large numbers of cattle; others never spend a penny for hay or supplements; many never deworm or spray for flies. Many don't even have a mower or sprayer to control weeds. A vet in New Zealand has a 100% success rate with ET. Many have used mob grazing to double or triple their carrying capacity. I'd do what these people are doing.

SORRY SIR I did not know that you had no cattle.
It is kind of odd someone telling people about cattle that has none , but maybe you had some in the past, and no I do not know that either.
do you have any kind of live stock ????

He has a book with livestock in it. He would be bank broke in a year trying to do everything the way he's read it.

 

[Turkeybird]

All hat and no cows

 

[City Guy]

I have learned many things from this forum, some have even changed my mind. But since I only read them and did not experience them I will now declare them useless and forget them. Thanks.

 

[City Guy]

I did and that is what I thought I was saying Thank You to.

I detect some irony in that City Guy.

May I be so bold as to imply - that is not what you were saying? Regardless, that is not what is important. Here is what is important:

At the mammalian level, in this case Bovines, a producer cannot rely solely on their innate immunity to parasites. In the broad spectrum of parasites, a progressive producer should be encouraged to use state of medicine products for the control of parasites. That is not me preaching. I have attended conferences at which national experts from Universities that excell in parasite research in cattle have made presentations. They all promote the use of parasiticides for the control of parasites in cattle.

Nevertheless, I will take this opportunity to swim against the current and openly commend you for bringing topics of substance to this forum. I don't care whether you have cattle or not. I enjoy the discussions that you initiate. I think you are intelligent and refreshing. Please continue.

Aw Gee, You're makin me blush. Thanks for the encouragement. Just a side thought: I usually hold university research suspect because much (most) of it is funded by private industry and there is a built-in bias. Not true in every case, I know. And just in case some people might believe I am anti-chemicals; I am not. Chemicals are keeping me alive. I am a "do whatever it takes to maximize SUSTAINABLE profits" kind of guy.

 

[Margonme]

I did and that is what I thought I was saying Thank You to.

I detect some irony in that City Guy.

May I be so bold as to imply - that is not what you were saying? Regardless, that is not what is important. Here is what is important:

At the mammalian level, in this case Bovines, a producer cannot rely solely on their innate immunity to parasites. In the broad spectrum of parasites, a progressive producer should be encouraged to use state of medicine products for the control of parasites. That is not me preaching. I have attended conferences at which national experts from Universities that excell in parasite research in cattle have made presentations. They all promote the use of parasiticides for the control of parasites in cattle.

Nevertheless, I will take this opportunity to swim against the current and openly commend you for bringing topics of substance to this forum. I don't care whether you have cattle or not. I enjoy the discussions that you initiate. I think you are intelligent and refreshing. Please continue.

Aw Gee, You're makin me blush. Thanks for the encouragement. Just a side thought: I usually hold university research suspect because much (most) of it is funded by private industry and there is a built-in bias. Not true in every case, I know. And just in case some people might believe I am anti-chemicals; I am not. Chemicals are keeping me alive. I am a "do whatever it takes to maximize SUSTAINABLE profits" kind of guy.

You are on the right track to be skeptical. Every endeavor of mankind has bias built into the equation.

 

[talltimber]

CG, I am wondering what makes you so interested in cattle. I think I remember you said you had a restaurant? Does it come from that, your interest? What is it that holds your interest about this stuff with no "skin in the game"? If it's ocd, then I can understand that as I have a touch, but why cattle? Just curious. It seems you put a lot of time in on it.