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greybeard
Well-known member
C'mon Dun, emus gonna be the next big thing (again). And they probably don't have the "worm gene".
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
boondocks
Well-known member
Ok you've all had your fun. I guess I always have a lifelong habit of taking up for the underdog but this thread is starting to look like bullies and I know you fine fellows aren't that.
How about this--when CG posts something, the first two people get to take a whack at him, then after that y'all move on to bashing someone or something else. Otherwise, it's just piling on and it doesn't seem right.
I'm sure I'll be it now.
:tiphat:
How about this--when CG posts something, the first two people get to take a whack at him, then after that y'all move on to bashing someone or something else. Otherwise, it's just piling on and it doesn't seem right.
I'm sure I'll be it now.
:tiphat:
reeler
Well-known member
Thanks for posting, Extremely informativedun":1ma7enlv said:
boondocks":e84skp7n said:
Thanks for your good intentions but I don't feel like the under dog. As long as they're picking on me they are leaving someone else alone.
I stand by me original question. Have any of you ever tried to combat parasites any other way except chemically? I haven't either, but many have and I just tried to relay (regurgitate) to you their programs, as I understand them, for your honest evaluation. Would some one among you please attack the programs as vigorously as you attacked me? I may be totally wrong but no one has given me any reason to change my mind. You all argue like liberals -attack the person, not the problem.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
A person can't afford trial and error in the cow business, it takes 3 years to see the results of one breeding. I attend different schools and seminars relating to the cattle industry throughout the year. And it's very surprising to me how the so called experts think so differently. This week on Monday I was told dragging the pastures helped reduce the fly and worm population. At Tuesday's night's meeting the speaker there said dragging the pastures spread the eggs around and promoted more worms and flies, go figure. Nothing in life is written in stone, and that's especially true for the cattle business.
M-5
Well-known member
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Boondocks, call me what you want but I tend to listen to people that actually know something. CG might know alot of things but cows aint one of them. TG is right you can't take a chance on it. HeII the oil companies make motor oil they say will last 10 20k miles it might work for granny but granpa not so much.reading play boy don't make you Hugh heifner. Back to being a bully well I only tell folks what I think. I think your wrong and if you say something as stupid as that again I ll tell you again.
MRRherefords
Well-known member
:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:True Grit Farms":2izvl3i7 said:
farmerjan
Well-known member
CG yes we have tried the routine of only worming the ones that seem to need it. We do not sell the cow and calf once they are better. But we do watch the family line. We do not routinely worm any more since we feel that the cows as a rule do develop some resistance. We regularly feed DE in the mineral and it is in all the feed that we feed, which is minimal and it seems to take care of most of the problems. Because we do buy and sell we are constantly introducing various genetic deficiencies into our pastures.
Culling just for lack of worm resistance is not practical. It is an added "leaf" in the whole "bale of hay".
We have practiced this very strongly in our sheep. We have 3 "lines" and they each have their strengths. One group is more worm resistant, but don't have the best rams (for horns), and are half nuts to work with. One group produces the best rams heads (horns) but they have the worst feet there are, more foot rot than believeable and very soft hooves. The third group have decent feet tend to be more suseptible for worms and are a bit smaller. We have been crossing the lines, keeping very detailed records, and are now culling the ewes more for feet problems and wormyness. It is a long process and we will never be where they are all "great" but we are working on it. THAT SAID, we are not making our living from them. They are a "hobby". Add to that, we are in an area where the barber pole worm is a big problem and these dall sheep were originally more of a dry land type sheep. Like the Bighorns. One group is from Texas one from NC and I don't remember if we know where the third group (our original ones) was from, although they were a mixed group put together to sell.
So in the meantime, how do you think that all these farmers are going to make a living from their investment if they are supposed to only go buy animals that are worm resistant? And what of the different bloodlines and genetic diversity that will be lost by only going to an animal that meets only these qualifications?
Maybe some only use chemical wormers, but I don't think that anyone just does it for kicks. Chemical wormers cost money, and time to administer.
Until you have the money and time invested, and experience in the cattle business, I think that you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think you are entitled to tell people who "walk the walk and talk the talk" that they should do such and such. You are not in a position to say, "this is how I have done it and it works for me" ; and I don't feel that you should be saying, this is what you should do....
Culling just for lack of worm resistance is not practical. It is an added "leaf" in the whole "bale of hay".
We have practiced this very strongly in our sheep. We have 3 "lines" and they each have their strengths. One group is more worm resistant, but don't have the best rams (for horns), and are half nuts to work with. One group produces the best rams heads (horns) but they have the worst feet there are, more foot rot than believeable and very soft hooves. The third group have decent feet tend to be more suseptible for worms and are a bit smaller. We have been crossing the lines, keeping very detailed records, and are now culling the ewes more for feet problems and wormyness. It is a long process and we will never be where they are all "great" but we are working on it. THAT SAID, we are not making our living from them. They are a "hobby". Add to that, we are in an area where the barber pole worm is a big problem and these dall sheep were originally more of a dry land type sheep. Like the Bighorns. One group is from Texas one from NC and I don't remember if we know where the third group (our original ones) was from, although they were a mixed group put together to sell.
So in the meantime, how do you think that all these farmers are going to make a living from their investment if they are supposed to only go buy animals that are worm resistant? And what of the different bloodlines and genetic diversity that will be lost by only going to an animal that meets only these qualifications?
Maybe some only use chemical wormers, but I don't think that anyone just does it for kicks. Chemical wormers cost money, and time to administer.
Until you have the money and time invested, and experience in the cattle business, I think that you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think you are entitled to tell people who "walk the walk and talk the talk" that they should do such and such. You are not in a position to say, "this is how I have done it and it works for me" ; and I don't feel that you should be saying, this is what you should do....
dun":6wkqju9a said:M-5":6wkqju9a said:
Suppose one of you wrote something on this forum that I thought was worth sharing with other cattle people. Would it automatically become useless because "City Guy" relayed It and did not experience it?
Greg Judy and Jim Elizondo do not routinely worm their cattle chemically --does that make my position more acceptable? Who would it have to be before you stopped calling it stupid?
Dave
Well-known member
City Guy":16kqwyw5 said:
"Learned from others" or read what others wrote. I hate to be the one to tell you this but pretty much everyone on here knows how to read. They can and do read articles for themselves. In all probability they read, attend workshops, and talk personally to people in the know much more than you do. There are some here who actually have college degrees that they received for spending 4 years in school studying about raising cattle. I also hate to inform you that a lot of what is published or written on the internet not necessarily the gospel truth. That and it is a very big country with lots of different environments so what works in one part might very well not work in another.
farmerjan
Well-known member
CG; I have attended several seminars here put on by our Va forage and grass assoc and they have had people like Greg Judy and many others who do push things like rotational grazing, getting away from making and feeding hay, alternative things like DE for worms, mob grazing, you name it. I have been to Joel Salatin's place several times as he is 1/2 hour from me. It is great that you do all this reading and you obviously do retain alot from what you read. I know that there are times that I come across rather strong or abrupt, but I can at least say that I have done it / am doing it / won't ever do it / or might try it....I think that the fact that you do come on very strong, and sound so opinionated, and have no first hand "been there, done that" knowledge, is what most guys find very annoying. Being female, I know that there are times that most guys will brush off my ideas and all as being...."what ever". I have gotten more respect on here than most places I have been, and that's something I consider a compliment since there are alot of "old school" guys who may be a bit chauvinistic. And I say that in a respectful way. Most all will make comments about their wives and the pride that comes through is evident by what they say they can do, the help they are etc and so forth. Like the thread about what their wife drives....read all the compliments about "my wife can drive anything on the place"....some of them would put me to shame and I think I do okay. My son brags on me but seldom tells me to my face that he thinks I am good at this or that. He just expects that I know he is proud of me. As I am of him.
All that said, you make statements that come across as condemming, to farmers/ranchers who have been doing something most all their lives, but you don't have any of the personal experience to say, "I tried this and this is what I found worked for me instead..."
What Dave said is right. Most of us have read and gone to seminars, some college too, and although there are many who don't like change, if we are shown something, by someone who has made it work, especially if it is in our home area, and can see that there is some merit in it, many will try it to some degree. You CAN'T just up and sell everything to try something new; what if it doesn't work because it is something that someone just wrote about without ever having done it themselves????
Like the conflicting advise given on dragging pastures...One day it is good to break up the cow patties and there won't be so many fly eggs to hatch, the next day at a different meeting it ISN'T good to drag because it will spread all the fly eggs....MY OPINION...drag and spread the patties. The flies don't lay eggs in little tiny pieces of cow poop like they do in the bigger patties, the larvae that do hatch will die quicker because they don't have the moister environment to mature in, the littler pieces will be incorporated into the soil quicker by earthworms and microbes and the grass will be more uniform so the cattle graze more evenly. JUST MY OPINION
All that said, you make statements that come across as condemming, to farmers/ranchers who have been doing something most all their lives, but you don't have any of the personal experience to say, "I tried this and this is what I found worked for me instead..."
What Dave said is right. Most of us have read and gone to seminars, some college too, and although there are many who don't like change, if we are shown something, by someone who has made it work, especially if it is in our home area, and can see that there is some merit in it, many will try it to some degree. You CAN'T just up and sell everything to try something new; what if it doesn't work because it is something that someone just wrote about without ever having done it themselves????
Like the conflicting advise given on dragging pastures...One day it is good to break up the cow patties and there won't be so many fly eggs to hatch, the next day at a different meeting it ISN'T good to drag because it will spread all the fly eggs....MY OPINION...drag and spread the patties. The flies don't lay eggs in little tiny pieces of cow poop like they do in the bigger patties, the larvae that do hatch will die quicker because they don't have the moister environment to mature in, the littler pieces will be incorporated into the soil quicker by earthworms and microbes and the grass will be more uniform so the cattle graze more evenly. JUST MY OPINION
Things have to make sense or I'm not clinging to them. I read and hear many things about livestock, poultry, politics, society. Some ideas, practices, procedures are crystal clear in their brilliance or stupidity and I quickly cling to them or abandon them accordingly. I adhere firstly to the tenet of Tom Lasiter; "Raising cattle is simple, the problem is keeping it simple". I believe in attacking the cause of a problem, not just treating the symptoms, whether it be livestock or society. I believe the simple approach to any problem is usually the best. I know that the best practices of today may not be adequate for the future.
Let me elaborate on the pasture dragging debate. I will use my words to express the opinions of others whom I feel have better solutions. Please think about the ideas, not me.
1. Mob grazing will eliminate the need to drag pastures. The action of the "excited herd" will accomplish the drag and mix function for free.
2. For the price of the drag, the fuel and the fly spray one can purchase a flock of chickens that will control the flies. A rancher in Georgia does that on a large scale with no poultry fence of netting!! In his words, "They can walk all the way to Atlanta, if they want, but they stay right here". Even if half the birds are killed, it may be cheaper than the fuel, chemicals, equipment and time.
3. Resistance to parasites is an inheritable trait and should be considered when making breeding decisions.
Let me elaborate on the pasture dragging debate. I will use my words to express the opinions of others whom I feel have better solutions. Please think about the ideas, not me.
1. Mob grazing will eliminate the need to drag pastures. The action of the "excited herd" will accomplish the drag and mix function for free.
2. For the price of the drag, the fuel and the fly spray one can purchase a flock of chickens that will control the flies. A rancher in Georgia does that on a large scale with no poultry fence of netting!! In his words, "They can walk all the way to Atlanta, if they want, but they stay right here". Even if half the birds are killed, it may be cheaper than the fuel, chemicals, equipment and time.
3. Resistance to parasites is an inheritable trait and should be considered when making breeding decisions.
ClinchValley
Well-known member
MOB or MIG grazing is a great idea. Only it is hard to put in practice for many of us. It would probably be a good stop to the spread of parasites as well… Just hard to get things lined up. Water Water Water. This stuff costs decent amounts of money and/or resources, my dude.
Fly spray isn't expensive. Most of us use home made drags. And fuel isn't that expensive to drag. As most of them are piled in close vicinity to water or mineral or the loaf area. Also, the drag has benefits to the whole paddock. Disturbs the grass. Potentially knocks weeds down.
Here where i live, chickens wouldn't last a week before they'd all be gobbled up.
These are good ideas you have CG, but they are hard to put in practice for me. Expensive to implement.
I'm working on the Intensive rotations. But infrastructure is damned expensive. Water, Water, Water. Lol.
Again, i know you have good intentions. But the practicality of implementation is not there for me, if not many folks on here.
Fly spray isn't expensive. Most of us use home made drags. And fuel isn't that expensive to drag. As most of them are piled in close vicinity to water or mineral or the loaf area. Also, the drag has benefits to the whole paddock. Disturbs the grass. Potentially knocks weeds down.
Here where i live, chickens wouldn't last a week before they'd all be gobbled up.
These are good ideas you have CG, but they are hard to put in practice for me. Expensive to implement.
I'm working on the Intensive rotations. But infrastructure is damned expensive. Water, Water, Water. Lol.
Again, i know you have good intentions. But the practicality of implementation is not there for me, if not many folks on here.
City Guy":2g6gxhcb said:
Everything is a "chemical". Water is a chemical - a compound of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom. Parasiticides are chemicals but my point is "everything" on the planet is composed of atoms and/or molecules so just drop the word "chemical" in front of de-worming.
Now, de-worming does not create "stronger" parasites. It simply causes the parasite to adapt to the de-worming. It does not create a weaker cow. It creates a healthy cow.
Go to your room and think about this.
PS: as parasites adapt so does man. It creates an incentive for companies to keep ahead of the adaptation of the parasite. That is a good thing.
OP
OP
dun
Well-known member
That's about how I figured it. No matter how many chickens you have they would be eaten, more chickens would just bring in more predators.ClinchValley":3bj02i8j said:
As I have been taken to task for saying before, but I will repeat it, "There is no silver bullet"!
farmerjan
Well-known member
I practiced the chickens free ranging at one pasture and yes they did a good job of breaking up the cow piles and eating the larvae. I sold "free range eggs" which took time and effort to collect, clean, box, market, and deliver. I ran 100 to 200 layers for 2 years. Made about .25 per dozen (getting from 2.50 to 4.00 dozen, most wholesale, some direct sales) after all expenses...not counting MY TIME. Lost some to the raccoons, and a fox and a coyote, but the losses were not too bad if I got them locked up in the evenings...the fox realized he could come through during the day to get his free meal so had to shoot one and the other got run over on the road...
Then the D#@*#%#D eagle moved in. I lost 122 birds in one summer and was told by every game warden, dog warden, sheriff, etc and so forth that I could not shoot it. There were several neighbors that thought it was SOOOO BEAUTIFUL and that a couple of chickens were worth the price to see him. Yet they weren't willing to buy the "free-range pasture eggs". And they didn't have to replace the pullets at $7-10 each. So no, the price of half the chickens was alot higher than a couple hours dragging the pasture... These are the "DO-GOODER" idiots that buy a house on about 3-10 acre estates and then put in restrictions in the neighborhood development....And they watched things "like a hawk". With binoculars I might add.... A gun shot, .22, would have the d...d sheriff there in 15 minutes, even when I shot & killed a possum that had gotten in and was eating eggs during the day. I couldn't very well put them in moveable coops because there aren't enough hours in the day to move all them and feed and water all those separate pens. I work for a living. And the pasture just wasn't flat and easy to use them. SO I FINALLY GAVE THEM UP. This is rented pasture. We tried a guardian dog then had neighbors on us for "NEGLECT" because the dog was there by himself and all kinds of BULL HOCKEY. Then they started feeding the dog, and making him a "pet" so that he was sitting at the fence instead of doing his job. DONE....
Clinch is right, the biggest thing we face is WATER availability at most of the pastures, and the fencing to deal with it. WE RENT most of the places we have animals. One guy has gone the route of cross fencing, water troughs, and all that....he is a millionaire, and has gotten into every gov't program and done all that. IT works great. We pay dearly for those pastures but we do get better benefits. But they are secluded and chickens wouldn't last a week and the fences will not keep in guardian dogs or keep out foxes or coyotes. And at one the well went dry and then we were screwed....lots of grass and no water....and no gate to the "crep" that was along the creek....
If you own the land and have a REAL GOOD job then maybe you can afford to put in the perfect set up....But except for the 2 years or so when beef prices went way up, you cannot afford to do it on 1.30 steers....
I have tried to be forgiving and think that you are sincerely trying to see better ways to do things...BUT YOU ARE NOT DOING IT. So, quit telling us that this guy is doing it or that guy is doing it and realize that there are alot of circumstances that just do not lend themselves to the "way it is done such and such" and stop with the condescending attitude. We have all read and heard the benefits and do try to incorporate what we can in our own operations.
They have to make sense or your not clinging to it.... BUT you are not out there doing it day to day....Go offer to be an intern on some of these places and see how much work there is to doing it. And the money that it takes to get to where it is "easier" to move cattle from pasture to pasture....and the low wages that are realized by the workers....
I believe in rotational grazing, stockpiling grass and all that, but some things just can't be put into practice in some places...
Then the D#@*#%#D eagle moved in. I lost 122 birds in one summer and was told by every game warden, dog warden, sheriff, etc and so forth that I could not shoot it. There were several neighbors that thought it was SOOOO BEAUTIFUL and that a couple of chickens were worth the price to see him. Yet they weren't willing to buy the "free-range pasture eggs". And they didn't have to replace the pullets at $7-10 each. So no, the price of half the chickens was alot higher than a couple hours dragging the pasture... These are the "DO-GOODER" idiots that buy a house on about 3-10 acre estates and then put in restrictions in the neighborhood development....And they watched things "like a hawk". With binoculars I might add.... A gun shot, .22, would have the d...d sheriff there in 15 minutes, even when I shot & killed a possum that had gotten in and was eating eggs during the day. I couldn't very well put them in moveable coops because there aren't enough hours in the day to move all them and feed and water all those separate pens. I work for a living. And the pasture just wasn't flat and easy to use them. SO I FINALLY GAVE THEM UP. This is rented pasture. We tried a guardian dog then had neighbors on us for "NEGLECT" because the dog was there by himself and all kinds of BULL HOCKEY. Then they started feeding the dog, and making him a "pet" so that he was sitting at the fence instead of doing his job. DONE....
Clinch is right, the biggest thing we face is WATER availability at most of the pastures, and the fencing to deal with it. WE RENT most of the places we have animals. One guy has gone the route of cross fencing, water troughs, and all that....he is a millionaire, and has gotten into every gov't program and done all that. IT works great. We pay dearly for those pastures but we do get better benefits. But they are secluded and chickens wouldn't last a week and the fences will not keep in guardian dogs or keep out foxes or coyotes. And at one the well went dry and then we were screwed....lots of grass and no water....and no gate to the "crep" that was along the creek....
If you own the land and have a REAL GOOD job then maybe you can afford to put in the perfect set up....But except for the 2 years or so when beef prices went way up, you cannot afford to do it on 1.30 steers....
I have tried to be forgiving and think that you are sincerely trying to see better ways to do things...BUT YOU ARE NOT DOING IT. So, quit telling us that this guy is doing it or that guy is doing it and realize that there are alot of circumstances that just do not lend themselves to the "way it is done such and such" and stop with the condescending attitude. We have all read and heard the benefits and do try to incorporate what we can in our own operations.
They have to make sense or your not clinging to it.... BUT you are not out there doing it day to day....Go offer to be an intern on some of these places and see how much work there is to doing it. And the money that it takes to get to where it is "easier" to move cattle from pasture to pasture....and the low wages that are realized by the workers....
I believe in rotational grazing, stockpiling grass and all that, but some things just can't be put into practice in some places...
greybeard
Well-known member
Everything works for everyone...on paper..in real world application---not so much.
Kinda like war planning. Most of it goes right out the window not long after the first shots are fired.
Kinda like war planning. Most of it goes right out the window not long after the first shots are fired.
