Pot Bellied Bottle Calves

[jruppe89]

I have two bottle calves that have been off the bottle for 4 days now and have horrible pot bellies. They're eating grain really well, so my father-in-law said they were plenty old enough to be weaned…these are my first bottle calves and were abandoned by some of his momma cows. They have plenty of great grass due to tons of rain and fresh water! I feel like I'm doing something wrong or I weaned them too early!! Any help would be so appreciated!!

 

[farmerjan]

It might help if you would post how old the calves are for starters... just because they are weaned 4 days doesn't tell anything about them. 4 weeks , 2 months, 4 months???? They did not get a pot belly over 4 days of no milk regardless of what you are or are not feeding them.

Most dairy calves are fed for 6-12 weeks on bottles. Different policies for different dairies. 8 weeks (2 months) is a good average... IF the calf is eating grain good. All the good hay or good grass will not do them alot of good at that age as they need the more concentrated nutrition and it needs to be well balanced ... that is provided in the milk replacer or by their momma's milk. Hay and grass helps to get the rumen to working and so they can better utilize the roughage.

Although not a real concern in most cases, in very young calves, a severe pot belly can be a sign of worms... but most often it is a sign of too much roughage and not enough concentrated (grain) feed, and they are trying to eat more and more, because their system is needing more and better nutrition. They could be bloating a bit on the green grass because they are eating too much of it trying to feed the "need " for more solid feed. I would definitely be feeding some hay and maybe limiting their grass for a bit.

What does their manure look like?

 

[MurraysMutts]

Yep!
What Jan said!

 

[jruppe89]

It might help if you would post how old the calves are for starters... just because they are weaned 4 days doesn't tell anything about them. 4 weeks , 2 months, 4 months???? They did not get a pot belly over 4 days of no milk regardless of what you are or are not feeding them.

Most dairy calves are fed for 6-12 weeks on bottles. Different policies for different dairies. 8 weeks (2 months) is a good average... IF the calf is eating grain good. All the good hay or good grass will not do them alot of good at that age as they need the more concentrated nutrition and it needs to be well balanced ... that is provided in the milk replacer or by their momma's milk. Hay and grass helps to get the rumen to working and so they can better utilize the roughage.

Although not a real concern in most cases, in very young calves, a severe pot belly can be a sign of worms... but most often it is a sign of too much roughage and not enough concentrated (grain) feed, and they are trying to eat more and more, because their system is needing more and better nutrition. They could be bloating a bit on the green grass because they are eating too much of it trying to feed the "need " for more solid feed. I would definitely be feeding some hay and maybe limiting their grass for a bit.

What does their manure look like?

I'm sorry, I thought I put their age on here. They are 3 months. That's what I thought, that they weren't getting enough grain and eating too much grass. But my father-in-law told me to lower the feed because the grass would sustain them and I'm completely new to this. But no they didn't start getting the pot bellies that soon, they were already kind of pot bellied before and they have been wormed. Their manure looks good and normal.

 

[farmerjan]

Thanks for answering my questions. 3 months is old enough to wean if they are eating 2-3% of their body weight in grain. I am not going to argue the point with your f-i-l..... but they are not going to get enough protein and nutrition on just grass and a "little grain" at that age to grow properly... without their momma's milk... like his beef cattle do. The concentrated nutrition in the milk a cow produces , plus what the calf learns to eat, goes a long way to getting them to the 4-600 lbs they are when they are weaned completely. NATURE BALANCES it out when allowed to have a "natural" calf growing up.
Since his cows abandoned these calves, what you were doing is actually becoming their momma... and the milk replacer is sufficient to get them a good start. The grain is a cheaper alternative to the milk that you are no longer feeding them. I would maybe try to give them a little more GOOD quality hay and keep them off grass for a few hours... and I would NOT skimp on their grain.
I know that grain costs have also skyrocketed. But if you are planning to sell them, there is nothing worse than a pot bellied looking, scrawny mal-nourished calf. And it will kill you price wise and then all this time and work will be for nothing.
I think that the pot belly look is from them trying to eat as much as they can to "feed" their bodies and their rumen has enlarged disproportionately to accommodate that increased roughage intake.
If you are having plenty of grass and all, due to good rains, you will also find that there is more "water" in the grass from fast growth, than actual nutrition... if that makes sense. Like eating a whole plate full of lettuce... it fills you up for an hour then it is so much water that it goes through you faster and then you are hungry again... and your body is not getting alot of nutrition from it.. just filler?
The fact that their manure is looking good is a plus. Many will get a little runny on real rich grass... that is another reason that a good quality hay will slow it down going through their digestive tract.

Most animals cannot handle a strictly roughage/grass diet until they are in the 500+ lb range... the protein levels are not high enough for good growth, and they cannot eat enough to get all the trace nutrients to feed the growing bones and tissues. That is why calves on cows are still getting that little extra from the cows milk to balance out what they are eating as they are developing their gut tract for a strictly roughage diet. If you take away the milk, you have to provide it another way....

 

[jruppe89]

Thanks for answering my questions. 3 months is old enough to wean if they are eating 2-3% of their body weight in grain. I am not going to argue the point with your f-i-l..... but they are not going to get enough protein and nutrition on just grass and a "little grain" at that age to grow properly... without their momma's milk... like his beef cattle do. The concentrated nutrition in the milk a cow produces , plus what the calf learns to eat, goes a long way to getting them to the 4-600 lbs they are when they are weaned completely. NATURE BALANCES it out when allowed to have a "natural" calf growing up.
Since his cows abandoned these calves, what you were doing is actually becoming their momma... and the milk replacer is sufficient to get them a good start. The grain is a cheaper alternative to the milk that you are no longer feeding them. I would maybe try to give them a little more GOOD quality hay and keep them off grass for a few hours... and I would NOT skimp on their grain.
I know that grain costs have also skyrocketed. But if you are planning to sell them, there is nothing worse than a pot bellied looking, scrawny mal-nourished calf. And it will kill you price wise and then all this time and work will be for nothing.
I think that the pot belly look is from them trying to eat as much as they can to "feed" their bodies and their rumen has enlarged disproportionately to accommodate that increased roughage intake.
If you are having plenty of grass and all, due to good rains, you will also find that there is more "water" in the grass from fast growth, than actual nutrition... if that makes sense. Like eating a whole plate full of lettuce... it fills you up for an hour then it is so much water that it goes through you faster and then you are hungry again... and your body is not getting alot of nutrition from it.. just filler?
The fact that their manure is looking good is a plus. Many will get a little runny on real rich grass... that is another reason that a good quality hay will slow it down going through their digestive tract.

Most animals cannot handle a strictly roughage/grass diet until they are in the 500+ lb range... the protein levels are not high enough for good growth, and they cannot eat enough to get all the trace nutrients to feed the growing bones and tissues. That is why calves on cows are still getting that little extra from the cows milk to balance out what they are eating as they are developing their gut tract for a strictly roughage diet. If you take away the milk, you have to provide it another way....

That all definitely makes sense! Thanks so much for the advice!

 

[farmerjan]

Hope that helps you. Stick around and let us know how you are doing with them.

 

[jruppe89]

Hope that helps you. Stick around and let us know how you are doing with them.

I do have another question. Should I switch them to calf grower or is that an essential thing to do? They've been on the starter for a few months and they'd eat as much as I'd let them but I obviously don't…just the recommended amount.

 

[Son of Butch]

Grower is lower in protein and more economical. It's smart moneywise not over feed high density protein required by baby calves. But all it hurts is your pocketbook
to keep feeding calf starter rather than switch.

 

[jruppe89]

Ah ok! Thank you

 

[farmerjan]

Agree, switch to the grower...they have gotten a good start and will continue to grow from here if you take decent care of them.

 

[rocfarm]

Agree with pretty much everything said above, but once you get them up to 6 months, my experience is a 30% protein cooked tub or cubes and grass will be sufficient. Had one potbellied that looked normal by 10 months after providing the tub. A bit cheaper than grain. If you can feed 3x per week, cubes better option. Cheapest might even be liquid feed, but a bit of a hassle.

Look at numbers carefully. Bottle calves tough to turn a profit on at these feed costs.

 

[jruppe89]

I'm new to this raising bottle calves. What is a protein tub or liquid feed?
I won't be selling them, they will grow old here and they will raise their babies for profit or beef.

 

[rocfarm]

I'm new to this raising bottle calves. What is a protein tub or liquid feed?
I won't be selling them, they will grow old here and they will raise their babies for profit or beef.

Usually, the limiting factors for cattle to thrive are protein, vitamins, and minerals. Calves need a higher average amount of protein, and they usually get that from their mother's milk. With bottle calves, you provide what nature doesn't in the form of some kind of feed. The problem is making it cost effective. That's usually hard to do with bottle calves. Also, with the not so great start to life that they receive, they might not make the best momma cows IMO.

That said, the cheapest way to provide extra protein, vitamins and minerals seems to be from liquid feed. Usually a molasses mixed with other vitamins and minerals. That's followed by cubing your cattle regularly. If you don't have time for the hassle, bring a good cooked protein tub (needs to be cooked to limit intake) and putting it out for the cattle to lick in one every day or so is a great way to go if their is plentiful forage. I had one calf weaned at 6 weeks or so that looked terrible on only grass, but 2 months after putting the protein tub out and adequate grass, the calf slicked off and her pot belly went away.

However, still don't know if the bad start to life will affect her productivity/fertility. We'll see. But a cow that doesn't have a calf every 12 to 13 months is usually a money-loser.

 

[Son of Butch]

However, still don't know if the bad start to life will affect her productivity/fertility. We'll see.

Dairy studies have shown calves that get off to a bad start will be smaller in size as 2 year olds and produce less milk. But fertility was not affected.

I doubt you will notice any significant difference as a beef cow as long as she receives adequate nutrition here on out.

 

[rocfarm]

Dairy studies have shown calves that get off to a bad start will be smaller in size as 2 year olds and produce less milk. But fertility was not affected.

I doubt you will notice any significant difference as a beef cow as long as she receives adequate nutrition here on out.

Interesting. I would have guessed that even leaving a calf on longer, maybe even letting the mother wean on her own, would raise a better replacement heifer/cow. Wonder if separating the heifers early affects the later maternal qualities of the cow as well. Something to research on Google scholar, I guess.

If early weaned calves are smaller in size as two year olds, does that mean they are more likely to have calving problems, or are their calves just born smaller so it's not an issue?

 

[jruppe89]

Is there a good protein tub you recommend? I currently am feeding them the Calf Manna which has 25% crude protein and have loose mineral out for them along with them access to pasture and clean water. They definitely are smaller then our other calves but I expected as much being bottle calves.

 

[farmerjan]

Calf manna is not meant to be fed as the only source of grain. It should be fed as an "additive" to some sort of regular grain. We have used calf manna off and on for years to "up" the protein in the grain we feed. Using like a cup or so per animal....mixed in with their grain.
Get a calf grower feed in the 12- 14% range and feed 2% of their body weight. Or a feed like an overall feed in the 10-12% range and add a cup of calf manna per animal if you want to up the protein.
I would also go with a tub to add to their protein intake, if it is more convenient.
I use an "all natural" tub that is 20% protein. No urea. Personal preference. Most tubs that have urea are 20-24% protein. It is a "cooked tub" so is harder and takes a little more effort to lick but it limits their intake. Tubs are more expensive to feed than just a simple grain feeding... but are very convenient. Some cows don't seem to care and others want to hang there and lick half the day.

 

[farmerjan]

Interesting. I would have guessed that even leaving a calf on longer, maybe even letting the mother wean on her own, would raise a better replacement heifer/cow. Wonder if separating the heifers early affects the later maternal qualities of the cow as well. Something to research on Google scholar, I guess.

If early weaned calves are smaller in size as two year olds, does that mean they are more likely to have calving problems, or are their calves just born smaller so it's not an issue?

Early weaned calves are not necessarily that much smaller. I have dairies that have very good sized heifers at 2 calving into the herds. It is lack of PROPER nutrition early on that will affect them..... if they are consuming a good BALANCE of nutrition, with no other obvious problems, they will grow. 99.999% of all dairy replacements are raised in hutches or some sort of "artificial" way... not on a cow. Being a "good mother" is not a quality most dairies look for....
I have raised many beef heifers on bottles, and found no increased lack of maternal instincts in them... but I have found that they are more likely to be LESS stressed by my presence around their new calves, and less likely to want to "kill me" if I want to tag or check their brand new baby. That is worth it to me to not have to worry quite as much that she sees me as a threat.... I like protective new momma's... but I want them to hear my voice and not see me as a threat in the same way they would see a strange dog or coyote or other predator.....

 

[rocfarm]

Is there a good protein tub you recommend? I currently am feeding them the Calf Manna which has 25% crude protein and have loose mineral out for them along with them access to pasture and clean water. They definitely are smaller then our other calves but I expected as much being bottle calves.

I asked down at the NRCS, and they said it doesn't really matter what tub you get. But I like a 30% protein tub that is cooked, as it limits intake and saves money by increasing their forage intake and allowing the bacteria in their rumen to better digest it. If your grass is green or your hay is 8% protein or higher, I'd feed other supplements til the pot bellies went away and then just see if I could get away with the tub, grass and a salt block. I don't feed minerals with the tub because I worked it out on paper and my cattle can get sufficient minerals and vitamins from decent forage and the ones they added to the tub. But I do it this way out of concern to keep things at least at a break even level on the feed finances. If you are wanting beautiful cows, everything else said here seems to make more sense (feeding grain and other higher-dollar supplements).

A 200 or 225 pound tub costs around 140$ here. The two hundred pound I got is all natural. The 225 has some urea in it. Again, the guy down at the USDA/NRCS office here says it doesn't matter. But if you are wanting closer to the organic side, you wouldn't want artificial urea in your tub. Just tell the local feed store you want to look at their 30% cooked tubs and I'm sure they'll probably have something.