Possible Johne's cow

[Katie]

I purchased four heifers from a reputable breeder at weaning they were all 5-7 months when I purchased them. At about 22 or 23 months of age one started looking off losing weight just looked rough I thought possible parasites so I used ivermectin pour on no change so about 2 months later at 24 months after she calved I took her to the vet and he did a fecal and said she did have a heavy load of parasites so he wormed with ivermectin plus injectable. I also started supplementing with feed 12 % horse and cattle sweet feed I worked her up to about 16 lbs per day divided into 2 feedings. She would not eat it all when I tried to increase more. At about 26 months it was time for her annual vaccinations so I went ahead and wormed her again with injectable ivermectin plus. She has gained some mabe 50 to 75 lbs but she will get diarrhea and go off of feed for a few days, but this usually coincided with a feed change even though it was a small amount. She will get over diarrhea in a couple of days and go back on feed but I have to start all over gradually working her back up to the original amount of feed and it looks like she draws very quickly during that time. She also stopped producing milk for her calf and he is 4 months of age despite my supplementing her. She also has not been cycling until just this week which coincides with her drying up. Even with the weight gain she looks like walking death body score of about 2. I talk to the vet again today and I am going to bring her in tomorrow for johne's testing. I am hoping she is not positive what are ya'lls thoughts. I had planned on culling her anyway since she wasn't keeping condition but I hadn't thought of Johnes I guess if she comes up positive we will just shoot her. The other three are in great shape body scores of 7 while raising calves.

 

[hillsdown]

Katie the fact that your cow has no appetite I am guessing that she probably does not have Johnes.
Usually Johnes cows have an excellent appetite but nothing is absorbed into their system because of the disease, the brain is tricked into thinking that the intestines have absorbed all the nutrition they need from the feed so the animal releases it with out any absorption.
That is why it is so hard to diagnose usually until it is too late because your cow is eating like a pig but still losing wait ,also the average age of asymptomatic Johnes cow is around 6 or 7.

Good luck and let us know what the vet finds.

 

[Beefy]

it doesnt sound like Johne's to me either (same reasons hillsdown said). non of the ivomecs work for me anymore, i've switched to valbazen for now. what particular parasites were found? in addition to parasites it sounds like possible hardware disease.

 

[TheBullLady]

Hmm.. I have to disagree. My experience with Johne's cows has been that they DO go off their feed for periods of time. And two years old is not unheard of, although generally it's found in older cows. I have noticed, and research has suggested, that after a stressful event, ie: calving, or weaning a calf, that's when you'll start seeing symptoms. It's not uncommon for a Johnes infected cow to "get better", possibly even enough to get bred back, and calf again. However, she will no doubt get symptomatic again, and possibly worse the next case.

It's a good idea to test her. It's good that she's not out of any of your herd, so you don't run as much risk of a sibling having it. But if she is positive, you'll have to watch everything in the herd for a year or so.

 

[Katie]

Thanks for your replies. So if she does come up positive it it best just to kill her and be done with it or what. She doesn't have enough meat to slaughter and I am not going to pawn her off on someone else. Also should the others be tested from what I have read the very young calves are the most likely to get it. We just purchased 7 more the end of June not from the same person but another reputable breeder that were 6 to 9 months old they have been on about 15 acres with her off and on so would they stand a good chance of getting it and what about the ones that have been with her since birth. I will let you know what I find out from the vet.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

have you considered hardware problems

 

[Katie]

No I haven't what is the best way to diagnose this. I will mention it to the vet tomorrow and see what he says.

 

[hillsdown]

and test the rest of the herd and kill any others that test positive.[/quote]


Just correcting a faux pas TN as I know that is what you meant.

 

[Katie]

Just to let you know she was positive with a blood test

 

[ffamom]

Sorry to hear that. What did the vet recommend for the rest of the herd?

 

[Katie]

he said he normally don't test unless he sees some of the signs, but I also use two other vets and I am going to check to see what they recommend. I have a small herd of 11 and would rather test them all to on the safe side

 

[hillsdown]

Just to let you know she was positive with a blood test

WOW that is young to show such definitive signs. I guess all things are showing up in young cattle BSE, Johne's ..I sure hope they get that urine test perfected so we can cull the bad before they effect the whole herd.

Sorry Katie, I've been there and it is a bugger,,, I had to cull a whole year of calves due to possible exposure.

Thanks for letting us know the outcome.

 

[fourstates]

Katie, I am so sorry for you. Do you have a clean pasture to move the negatives into? I think I would have my entire herd tested. This is very sad and very scary.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

You are getting some mixed info. Johnes disease can be "masked" for many years if the animal is getting extremely good management (lots of feed - very little stress).
It is most commonly seen in 2-year olds when they calve (first major stress in their life).
Only newborns & very young calves "usually" can get it. So the weaned calves you bought should not be able to have caught it from her. Her newborn calf & others born after she arrived "could" have gotten it. But cattle cannot be tested til they are 2 years of age.

Their "brain" doesn't have anything to do with their diarhea. Johnes affects the lining of the stomach and they simply cannot digest anything they eat. They are usually STARVED all the time, eating & losing weight. But it does affect some cattle differently.

It is good management practive to have all your herd old enough tested. And a fecal test is better than a blood test but takes longer.

I may have some of my "facts" wrong. You should definately go to:
http://www.johnes.org

 

[hillsdown]

http://www.johnes.org/general/faqs.html
Here is another direct link to that site ,it has really good info.

You are right Jeanne management plays a huge part in when a cow shows symptoms, I have never seen symptoms in an animal under 6 years of age.

Because testing gives false negatives as well as false positives you need do do it a few times.

USDA renewed it's 20 million dollar funding for studying Johne's in beef and dairy cattle last spring so maybe they will find something that can help us eradicate the disease . Canada has continued their research programs as well.

The urine test that is being developed I have heard that it is supposed to be able to test for Johne's as well but am not positive so do not hold me to that.

 

[Katie]

Thanks for the replies I have been reading about it on several websites. All the cows I have are under 2 except for her and the other 3 I bought from the same guy at the same time. They are in great shape definatly not showing any signs, but I would think them and the two calves (hers and one of the others) would have the best chance of getting it. I have to take those to the vet for preg check Friday so I am going to get him to test them also.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I would contact the breeder you purchased her from. I wouldn't be nasty - just inform him because she had to have gotten it on his farm - most likely from her dam). He needs to know he has a problem (if he doesn't already know). And yes, I would definately check the other two - but remember a negative test doesn't really mean much until they have been tested several different times. A positive is POSITIVE - but a negative really doesn't mean much.

 

[Beefy]

how much does a johnes test cost? can you just walk in with a ziplock bag full of poop? do they test for other things simultaneously?

 

[hillsdown]

Beefy our tests were 35 dollars each ...expensive that is why I opted to cull the calves that were exposed .When you realistically have to test around three times the calves that were exposed early on it adds up. Unfortunately the positive cow was in the group of cows calving.

Yes there are false positives ,although not very common, two cows that were tested the first time had a low positive MAP the second test and third were negative.
The original cow in question was put down and an actual tissue sample was tested, that was free as I also had a BSE test done on her .


I think the fecal test is much cheaper and since USDA has started their research program again there might even be funding for it.

I also agree the breeder needs to be notified so they can take precautions of their own ,,,however most likely they already know they have Johne's in their herd.

 

[milkmaid]

HD, can you ship samples over the border?

Tests from this place http://www.aghealthlabs.com/info/inwp.asp?wid=6 are $4.75/hd, shipping (overnight) is your own cost. Blood analysis only. I think the pricing I saw for fecal tests was around $7.50/hd from the johnes.org website. Certainly not $35/hd.