polled calf with horn buds

[txag]

That seems to be the common thinking on that topic, but i've been wondering lately if there isn't more to it than that. I've been using a Simm-Angus bull for the last few years. The guy who sold him to me swore that he was off of a Grand Champion Angus bull from Denver and one of his purebred horned Simm cows. He has small horns, something between a scur and a full sized horn. I had assumed that maybe had been bred up with a little Limo or something. Alot of my herd is not homozygous polled and so some calves are coming out horned and some polled. This year, one of my horned cows had a heifer calf that is polled. So I've got a polled calf off a horned bull and a horned cow. The last two calves she had were bull calves and had horns. One of them was off a double polled hereford bull. Now I'm wondering if that polled gene might be sex linked somehow. Its got me scratching my head anyway :?:

the only thing i can think of with your bull is that for some reason there's some kind of incomplete dominance going on. he's heterozygous (a polled gene from the angus bull & a horned gene from the horned simmi cow), so he should be polled (because it's dominant) but for some reason, it's not completely dominant & thus the small horns.

as for the horned calf from the double polled bull, how are you referring to him as double polled? some polled hereford bulls (even those from polled sire & dam) carry the horned gene.

 

[dun]

how are you referring to him as double polled? some polled hereford bulls (even those from polled sire & dam) carry the horned gene.

All double polled means is that both the sire and dam are polled. It doesn't address homozygousity (if that's a word), maybe it's homozygousism. It would have a better chance of being homozygous polled then if both parents aren't polled. I've alwasy considered the term just a method of making people think it's probably homozygous and is strictly a bit of geewhiz sale jargon.

dun

 

[txag]

how are you referring to him as double polled? some polled hereford bulls (even those from polled sire & dam) carry the horned gene.

All double polled means is that both the sire and dam are polled. It doesn't address homozygousity (if that's a word), maybe it's homozygousism. It would have a better chance of being homozygous polled then if both parents aren't polled. I've alwasy considered the term just a method of making people think it's probably homozygous and is strictly a bit of geewhiz sale jargon.

dun

that's what i was guessing but we really don't use that term w/polled herefords. in that case, the bull could easily carry the horned gene.

 

[dun]

I've only seen/heard it when referrring to normally horned breeds. The semen catalogs are big on using the term. Like I said, sales hype.

dun

 

[Texan]

It would have a better chance of being homozygous polled then if both parents aren't polled.

Could you explain that, Dun? Also, a lot of breeders and producers in my area throw around the term homozygous as if it has the same meaning as double-polled. Think you're right that it is basically a sales pitch.

 

[dun]

It would have a better chance of being homozygous polled then if both parents aren't polled.

Could you explain that, Dun? Also, a lot of breeders and producers in my area throw around the term homozygous as if it has the same meaning as double-polled. Think you're right that it is basically a sales pitch.

If both parents are polled it has a chance of being homozygous. If one parent isn't polled the offspring would have to be heterozygous polled, if it's polled at all. A horned parent has no option but to pass a horned gene. Unless you get into the mutation deal again.

Parent 1 Parent 2
PP hP Polled
hP hP could be homo polled, hetero polled or horned
hh hP could be horned or hetero polled

Not sure if that makes it any clearer or not. It's been a long day already.

dun

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

the only thing i can think of with your bull is that for some reason there's some kind of incomplete dominance going on. he's heterozygous (a polled gene from the angus bull & a horned gene from the horned simmi cow), so he should be polled (because it's dominant) but for some reason, it's not completely dominant & thus the small horns.

as for the horned calf from the double polled bull, how are you referring to him as double polled? some polled hereford bulls (even those from polled sire & dam) carry the horned gene.

I actually questioned the vet at the time i bought that Simm-Angus bull and he said that if you have a really dominant horned cow that you can end up with a horned calf. That kind of flies in the face of what I've always been taught. As far as the hereford bull goes, the majority of my cows at that time were horned and that was the only calf that year that had horns although they weren't big. It is possible that the hereford bull was not homozygous but if that was the case, it would be odd. I've known the guy who sold him to me forever almost. When I was a kid, I used to groom his bulls for him for the local sale. He has never had anything but polled animals as long as I've known him.

 

[txag]

I actually questioned the vet at the time i bought that Simm-Angus bull and he said that if you have a really dominant horned cow that you can end up with a horned calf. That kind of flies in the face of what I've always been taught.

yeah, sounds kind of bogus to me too. i've never heard anything like a "really dominant horned cow". maybe the vet just didn't want to say "i don't know"? :roll:

As far as the hereford bull goes, the majority of my cows at that time were horned and that was the only calf that year that had horns although they weren't big. It is possible that the hereford bull was not homozygous but if that was the case, it would be odd. I've known the guy who sold him to me forever almost. When I was a kid, I used to groom his bulls for him for the local sale. He has never had anything but polled animals as long as I've known him.

i guess what this kind of boils down to is that nothing in nature is always predictable. mutations do occur & although you usually don't hear of it being a mutation if two polleds give a horned calf (you just assume both parents were carriers of the horned gene), it could happen.

 

[LMCR]

I don't know if they are horns or scurs, pardon my ignorace, but I don't know the difference, never had any experience with horned cattle.

By the way, I sure appreciate you all taking time to answer my question.
LMCR

 

[dun]

I don't know if they are horns or scurs, pardon my ignorace, but I don't know the difference, never had any experience with horned cattle.

By the way, I sure appreciate you all taking time to answer my question.
LMCR

Horns ar attached to the skull and ar immovable, scurs are attached to the skin and they can be seen to move, sometimes a significatn amount, other times just barely

dun