Pharo Bulls

[KNERSIE]

I agree with Vic, don't buy the thinnest bull in a fat cattle sale.

I also agree with Kit Pharo's ways of developing bulls IF you can sell them that way, I tried it, had great customer satisfaction, but never was able to break into the higher priced market.

Started developing my bull by doing an on farm growth test where I decided at what tempo I want them to grow and how much energy I'm going to feed and guess what? Within the first three weeks I was sold out, the same pattern followed for the next four years, but depending on cattle prices and the economy it maybe took a little longer. And I haven't had a single come back with a subfertile bull, or one that fell apart.

Those that didn't go this route are still struggling to sell any bulls!

I still say I agree with Kit Pharo's ways, afterall feed, or the lack thereof, don't change the genetics one bit, but you better already have a very good established name in the industry with return customers otherwise you'll struggle to pay the bills!

If you want to sell fat bulls be prepared to cull hard, if you want to buy fat bulls, practice sound stockmanship and common sense and you'll very likely be OK.

 

[3waycross]

You know Banjo i would like to argue with you forever on this issue but we both know it's a waste of time. I will say this though. I usually put my higher end bulls on test and they weigh around 1150 to 1200 at a year. My other calves get a very modified(less feed) program and they weigh around 950lbs, both test just fine.

Frankly it's an apples to oranges comparison with Phoro's bulls as they are much older when they are sold so why would i care what his test scores were compared to mine.

I finish and sell my bulls in the manner that suits me and i have not had any problems doing it that way...........end of argument.


Oh yes i do have one question for you........if Kit Pharo turns a sharp corner does it make your nose bleed? :mrgreen:

 

[mwj]

If my cows regularly calve in a 60 day window, what is the advantage of a more fertile grass fed bull? That high sperm count sure sounds impressive but why would you need 1,000,000 more sperm per service? If the cow settles what are the extra sperm used for? Sounds a little bit like car sales or political adds :cowboy: Will it be ok with you when somebody claims that grass-fed bulls produce more unused sperm?

 

[Banjo]

If a bull won't gain on feed, what do you think his sons are going to do? Since the majority of calves end up in a feedlot someday. If you're worried about if they're too fat, don't buy them the day before you need them, and then you can get them to the weight you want.

and probably wouldn't hurt to be able judge cattle either.[/quote]

Then I guess you would just be screwed. But if you have cattle that will do well on grass, if you have grass, then they more than likely will do well in a feedlot IMO.
Now I'm not talkin about cattle out here on heavy grazed, overgrazed pastures that IMO represents a majority of farms/ranches out there. Last year, my first year of IRG I sold the biggest, heaviest calves thus far. Even more than the days of creep feeding and weaning and feeding we used to do, without the feed costs. That's what its all about, but you have to have the grass and be able to manage it.
I'm sure its frustrating to most bull producers to watch somebody like PCC sell bulls for $4k to $5k with virtually no feed, fertilize input costs.......while doing well to get half of that with all the feed, fertilize costs added in.

 

[Banjo]

You know Banjo i would like to argue with you forever on this issue but we both know it's a waste of time. I will say this though. I usually put my higher end bulls on test and they weigh around 1150 to 1200 at a year. My other calves get a very modified(less feed) program and they weigh around 950lbs, both test just fine.

Frankly it's an apples to oranges comparison with Phoro's bulls as they are much older when they are sold so why would i care what his test scores were compared to mine.

I finish and sell my bulls in the manner that suits me and i have not had any problems doing it that way...........end of argument.


Oh yes i do have one question for you........if Kit Pharo turns a sharp corner does it make your nose bleed? :mrgreen:

You are sooooo funny....if I didn't no better(which I don't) I would say you were 15 years old or at least act like it.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." -- Albert Einstein.

 

[SRBeef]

They definitely have their place. As with all things in life the truth lies somewhere in the middle. In cattle I believe profit lies in he middle. I want cattle that are neither too big, nor too small. I want them to milk to match my environment, which means I can have too much, or to little. If I had large framed 1600# cows that had good feet and udders, but just needed to be downsized I wouldn't hesitate to use some of these genetics to downsize my mature cow size. However I don't want to use them from now on and go to the other end of the spectrum and encur the opposite problem.

emphasis mine.

I think this is about the most useful quote in this thread. The answer is also somewhat breed dependent I would think, however I am still a relative beginner with experience with Herefords only although I have been selling mostly freezer beef so get to follow through dressing percentage to the final pounds in the box and most important, customer eating satisfaction.

As an engineer though I am into "efficiency" and even from my 6 or 7 years experience it seems like a 1200-1300 lb Hereford cow weaning a 205 day steer calf over 50% of her weight at weaning is a very efficient package.

That steer then "finished" in my system by controlled grazing of standing unharvested corn with good hay and mineral free choice behind them, using only the woods for shelter and harvested at about 1100lb and 13-14 months old produces and outstanding product very efficiently.

I am finding a good registered smaller frame/good CED and other EPD bull combined with a retained bull out of this registered bull and my best 1200 lb cow spreading her genes through the herd is moving me toward a more uniform and consistent herd.

Jim

 

[3waycross]

You know Banjo i would like to argue with you forever on this issue but we both know it's a waste of time. I will say this though. I usually put my higher end bulls on test and they weigh around 1150 to 1200 at a year. My other calves get a very modified(less feed) program and they weigh around 950lbs, both test just fine.

Frankly it's an apples to oranges comparison with Phoro's bulls as they are much older when they are sold so why would i care what his test scores were compared to mine.

I finish and sell my bulls in the manner that suits me and i have not had any problems doing it that way...........end of argument.


Oh yes i do have one question for you........if Kit Pharo turns a sharp corner does it make your nose bleed? :mrgreen:

You are sooooo funny....if I didn't no better(which I don't) I would say you were 15 years old or at least act like it.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." -- Albert Einstein.

Well now you have gone and hurt my feelings..........It was an honest question! I guess your non answer is a good enuf answer for me! :cowboy:

 

[ABrauny]

I'm a bit biased, but if a guy wants frame 4-5 cattle, why not go with a program like Mushrush's? You get moderation, fertility, and fleshing ability without the silliness Kit sometimes displays. I believe that Kit himself will tell you that his cattle are not designed for feedlots but for pasture finishing.

 

[3waycross]

I'm a bit biased, but if a guy wants frame 4-5 cattle, why not go with a program like Mushrush's? You get moderation, fertility, and fleshing ability without the silliness Kit sometimes displays. I believe that Kit himself will tell you that his cattle are not designed for feedlots but for pasture finishing.

The Mushrush program is a good one!

 

[SRBeef]

I have never heard of them before but looked at their website and seems like they have a good middle of the road approach for those using Red Angus. I like their emphasis on calving ease. If a bull's job is to sire commercial calves he has to sire calves that can be calved without an obstetrics ward on speed dial.

Here's their website: http://www.mushrushredangus.com/

Jim

 

[Gelbvieh 5]

You know Banjo i would like to argue with you forever on this issue but we both know it's a waste of time. I will say this though. I usually put my higher end bulls on test and they weigh around 1150 to 1200 at a year. My other calves get a very modified(less feed) program and they weigh around 950lbs, both test just fine.

Frankly it's an apples to oranges comparison with Phoro's bulls as they are much older when they are sold so why would i care what his test scores were compared to mine.

I finish and sell my bulls in the manner that suits me and i have not had any problems doing it that way...........end of argument.


Oh yes i do have one question for you........if Kit Pharo turns a sharp corner does it make your nose bleed? :mrgreen:

You are sooooo funny....if I didn't no better(which I don't) I would say you were 15 years old or at least act like it.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." -- Albert Einstein.

Seems like a reasonable question to me the way you pimp for him.

 

[Banjo]

You know Banjo i would like to argue with you forever on this issue but we both know it's a waste of time. I will say this though. I usually put my higher end bulls on test and they weigh around 1150 to 1200 at a year. My other calves get a very modified(less feed) program and they weigh around 950lbs, both test just fine.

Frankly it's an apples to oranges comparison with Phoro's bulls as they are much older when they are sold so why would i care what his test scores were compared to mine.

I finish and sell my bulls in the manner that suits me and i have not had any problems doing it that way...........end of argument.


Oh yes i do have one question for you........if Kit Pharo turns a sharp corner does it make your nose bleed? :mrgreen:

You are sooooo funny....if I didn't no better(which I don't) I would say you were 15 years old or at least act like it.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." -- Albert Einstein.

Seems like a reasonable question to me the way you pimp for him.

And who the He?? are you? You must be 3ways pimp or his 15 yr old twin brother. Thats all you two know how to do when you can't win an argument....resort to name calling and belittling. What else you got to say....show us all what kind of horse's azz you really are!

 

[SRBeef]

IMHO it is very impolite to waste many folks time when they open this thread expecting to read about bulls and a new post is nothing but childish bickering. Please do your name calling by pm.

Jim

 

[bcarty]

Well first of all thank you to all of you who actually responded with the information I asked for.

 

[3waycross]

IMHO it is very impolite to waste many folks time when they open this thread expecting to read about bulls and a new post is nothing but childish bickering. Please do your name calling by pm.

Jim

When you start paying my bills Jim you can tell me how to act , think, and talk. I have given you the latitude to say and think what you want and i expect the same in return. DO NOT pull my chain Jim or you will hear things aired about your program that you don't want to argue about. I backed off of you a while back at the request of a friend, now we should leave it at that!
I made an honest observation on here based on past experience with Mr Pharo lurking on this forum and then PM'ing( and no i can't prove it after all this time but it happened) the poster with angry responses for having disagreed with his program.

If someone's gonna nail me for stating that and attacking the way I raise my bulls without knowing how i raise my bulls then they get what they deserve.

FWIW i am not the only one who has seen less than civil behaviour from mr pharo.

BTW Banjo Mr Victor and i are not the same person we just share a name, and if my friend GV 5 wants to pull your chain a little it's up to him.

Now for my opinion on the Pharo program, frankly i don't care one way or the other what Kit Pharo does with his bulls. Where i live there is NO premium paid for grass finished 2yr old bulls so why do it. The cost of feeding them to 2 years on grass/hay is virtually a wash with my feedlot/pasture program. Actually my modified pasture program is a little cheaper but they lack the eye candy look that some folks want.
I am not saying that Pharo's don't sell some good bulls. They sell bulls that are good for some people. Now if you would like i will post an article written about what a really nice guy mr pharo is to those who would critisize his program.

Speaking of program maybe you can tell me how you get the same genetics from close to 30 co-operators in at least 5 to 7 different states and parts of the country. You will get bulls raised within certain parameters but in the end if he didn't raise em they ain't his!

 

[SRBeef]

I certainly don't want extend this any more.

However if there is something you wish to discuss about my cattle or the way I raise them I would appreciate the feedback from a more experienced cattleman. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. Just stick to cattle and not people.

I will say that discussion forums such as this decline dramatically when the discussion becomes more about people and personalities rather than the subject matter.

Good day.

Jim

 

[3waycross]

I certainly don't want extend this any more.

However if there is something you wish to discuss about my cattle or the way I raise them I would appreciate the feedback from a more experienced cattleman. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. Just stick to cattle and not people.

I will say that discussion forums such as this decline dramatically when the discussion becomes more about people and personalities rather than the subject matter.

Good day.

Jim

Funny you would say that Jim cuz i remember when someone on here with a world of experience gave you plenty of feedback and helped you a lot and you bit his hand also. As far as experience goes i have been in the cow business one way or the other since the 50's. When you have raised and sold a few bulls then you can tell me what to do.

BTW i wonder if you could expound a little more on your FORAGE based program for us.......the one that includes STANDING corn raised specifically for feed and how much you suppliment your cattle with protein and minerals. The fact that corn is standing doesn't make it not corn.

I have to say it always cracks me up that the more liberal ya are the more ya want to tell other folks how to think and act, JIM

Now whatta ya say we get all touchy and feely and make it about cattle and not people. Last time i looked it was the people who post on here and not the cattle.

 

[bcarty]

Holy cow... why dont you two just meet in a gravel parking lot somewhere, draw a line and have your pissin contest there and quit wasting everyone else's time on here. Some people are trying to use this to draw upon the experience of the other people who use this site.

 

[3waycross]

Holy cow... why dont you two just meet in a gravel parking lot somewhere, draw a line and have your be nice contest there and quit wasting everyone else's time on here. Some people are trying to use this to draw upon the experience of the other people who use this site.

If it was possible i would do just that at this point. As far as what you read it's your choice. If you don't like what i post don't read it! Sorry i messed up your thread

...........and now you can get over it!

 

[Taurus]

Someone is having a bad day today......