Ok guys I'm seriously thinking about buying one of these bulls. I have heard a lot about them and my neighbor is one of their cooperating producers, so I have heard a lot of good things about them. I want to hear from you guys that have used them. What are your experiences with them and how they impacted your cowherd. What did they do to steer prices? Did you like the heifers? What about how they are doing as cows in the herd now?
Pharo Bulls
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Lucky_P
Well-known member
Responded elsewhere, but will throw it out here, too - and I'm not afraid of a PM from whomever.
I'm sure the PCC cattle work well in some environments - I'm not sure they're best for yours or mine. But, you can do what you want.
I was on the 'cattle are too big' bandwagon for a while, and strongly considered using some of the PCC bulls in my breeding program. However, since I was able to get some small frame (4.0-4.5)/high $EN Angus sires - with similar below-average WW/YW epds - from ABS without incurring shipping charges, I went that route. Won't make that mistake again - I'm afraid you'll give up more than just a few inches of height - and those 2.5-4 frame bulls WILL downsize the next generation. We sure got no growth in the package, and the daughters are not panning out to be very productive cows - mature cows weighing less than 1000 lbs(or less than 900) just aren't going to cut it, here.
I'm fully into 'low-input' ranching - but my farm manager(wife) is into maximizing profit(good for me!); if my cattle were roughing it through the winter on dead, dry shortgrass pasture in eastern CO, the little PCC cattle might be the way to go. But with our winter-feeding regimen, I'm not convinced that a 900 lb cow with $EN value above +$20.00 is going to make me more money than a 1200 lb cow with a -$10.00 $EN value. Bet that 1200 lb cow will produce more than a $30 dollar difference in weaned calf value above production cost.
I'm sure the PCC cattle work well in some environments - I'm not sure they're best for yours or mine. But, you can do what you want.
I was on the 'cattle are too big' bandwagon for a while, and strongly considered using some of the PCC bulls in my breeding program. However, since I was able to get some small frame (4.0-4.5)/high $EN Angus sires - with similar below-average WW/YW epds - from ABS without incurring shipping charges, I went that route. Won't make that mistake again - I'm afraid you'll give up more than just a few inches of height - and those 2.5-4 frame bulls WILL downsize the next generation. We sure got no growth in the package, and the daughters are not panning out to be very productive cows - mature cows weighing less than 1000 lbs(or less than 900) just aren't going to cut it, here.
I'm fully into 'low-input' ranching - but my farm manager(wife) is into maximizing profit(good for me!); if my cattle were roughing it through the winter on dead, dry shortgrass pasture in eastern CO, the little PCC cattle might be the way to go. But with our winter-feeding regimen, I'm not convinced that a 900 lb cow with $EN value above +$20.00 is going to make me more money than a 1200 lb cow with a -$10.00 $EN value. Bet that 1200 lb cow will produce more than a $30 dollar difference in weaned calf value above production cost.
They definitely have their place. As with all things in life the truth lies somewhere in the middle. In cattle I believe profit lies in he middle. I want cattle that are neither too big, nor too small. I want them to milk to match my environment, which means I can have too much, or to little. If I had large framed 1600# cows that had good feet and udders, but just needed to be downsized I wouldn't hesitate to use some of these genetics to downsize my mature cow size. However I don't want to use them from now on and go to the other end of the spectrum and encur the opposite problem.
cow pollinater
Well-known member
Stature is around 40% heritable so you can absolutely expect your cattle to get shorter if you use those genetics. That doesn't absolutely mean that they'll be more efficient, it can also just mean that they're short inefficient cattle.
You can look through a few sire lineups with proven bulls on them and see that size and efficiency do not always go hand in hand. I think rather than chase size I'd focus on finding genetic outliers in efficiency that also offer mainstream growth. That way the calves are worth more but you still get the benefit of less input.
You can look through a few sire lineups with proven bulls on them and see that size and efficiency do not always go hand in hand. I think rather than chase size I'd focus on finding genetic outliers in efficiency that also offer mainstream growth. That way the calves are worth more but you still get the benefit of less input.
cow pollinater
Well-known member
I disagree. I'd breed that same cow towards the middle ground and try to average my way out. We like to assume that a big cow bred to a little bull will produce an average calf but in reality that calf and future generations can swing wildly from one end of the spectrum to the other. We decide the size of the spectrum by selecting a bottom or top end. Why widen the spectrum by choosing a low end that is less than ideal? That actually doubles the chance of an animal not being right sized.Isomade":d4d77xen said:
I've thought of going that route myself....I just like the fact that they are not developed on grain....studies show that bulls not grained are more fertile. However, having said that, the studies suggest that bulls fed to gain from two to four lb/day are less fertile. I don't feed any grain but I would think probably something fed a very modest amount of grain may do as well. There are a few producers out there starting to pop up here and there that are raising bulls that aren't fat as ticks and are ready to go to work.bcarty":9x5wdmq4 said:
I'm also not sold on the 900 to 1000lb. cow....i have 5 or 6 that i am watching here in my herd...so the jury is still out on that. I think about 1200lb is about right.
I've thought of going that route myself....I just like the fact that they are not developed on grain....studies show that bulls not grained are more fertile. However, having said that, the studies suggest that bulls fed to gain from two to four lb/day are less fertile. I don't feed any grain but I would think probably something fed a very modest amount of grain may do as well. There are a few producers out there starting to pop up here and there that are raising bulls that aren't fat as ticks and are ready to go to work.
I'm also not sold on the 900 to 1000lb. cow....i have 5 or 6 that i am watching here in my herd...so the jury is still out on that. I think about 1200lb is about right.[/quote]
Can you provide a source for those studies? Perhaps a link?[/quote]
I never saved any of them....but you wouldn't believe them anyway. Grassfed bulls and heifers just mature slower....which doesn't sit to well with most on this forum who want bulls to breed and heifers to be bred at a year old. but " Time is Money" as I was so elequently told one time. I guess if you really want to know about grassfed bull fertility.....find a vet or someone who has had a semen test done on their grassfed bulls and see how they compare to corn fed bulls. Why don't you contact the vet who does PCC's bull tests and see how they stack up to yours since your out there in the same neck of the woods. Maybe you can prove me wrong. :tiphat:
I'm also not sold on the 900 to 1000lb. cow....i have 5 or 6 that i am watching here in my herd...so the jury is still out on that. I think about 1200lb is about right.[/quote]
Can you provide a source for those studies? Perhaps a link?[/quote]
I never saved any of them....but you wouldn't believe them anyway. Grassfed bulls and heifers just mature slower....which doesn't sit to well with most on this forum who want bulls to breed and heifers to be bred at a year old. but " Time is Money" as I was so elequently told one time. I guess if you really want to know about grassfed bull fertility.....find a vet or someone who has had a semen test done on their grassfed bulls and see how they compare to corn fed bulls. Why don't you contact the vet who does PCC's bull tests and see how they stack up to yours since your out there in the same neck of the woods. Maybe you can prove me wrong. :tiphat:
Banjo":2sq3rjlt said:
Can you provide a source for those studies? Perhaps a link?[/quote]
I never saved any of them....but you wouldn't believe them anyway. Grassfed bulls and heifers just mature slower....which doesn't sit to well with most on this forum who want bulls to breed and heifers to be bred at a year old. but " Time is Money" as I was so elequently told one time. I guess if you really want to know about grassfed bull fertility.....find a vet or someone who has had a semen test done on their grassfed bulls and see how they compare to corn fed bulls. Why don't you contact the vet who does PCC's bull tests and see how they stack up to yours since your out there in the same neck of the woods. Maybe you can prove me wrong. :tiphat:[/quote]
Why don't you try being more honest. You can't show one study especially one that is unbiased to back up your :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: . How about you show me a grassfed 12 months old bull that weighs 800lbs and is 3 feet tall and tell me he is more fertile than my bulls finished on test.
BTW the reason grassfed heifers and bulls mature slower is they don't have the groceries to mature quicker. The market in this country wants young, well marbled, tender beef. If my customers want REAL grassfed meat i sell them Elk , Venison or Buffalo.
I guess it could happen to a degree if one had a herd of mongrels, but you have to use the same selection method you described either way. There would be nothing wrong with using a 4 frame bull like Outback (just an example I have never used him) to moderate height. I would never use a frame 2, wich I didn't even realize they had till I looked.cow pollinater":2lgwfy40 said:
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Sorry, Allan Nation is not my idea of a reliable source of information.
Know of too many trainwrecks from folks - especially dairymen - trying to follow his 'advice' as gospel. Forage only is great, if you have the right climate, soil, grass, stocking rate, and cattle - but in many instances, if you don't have that perfect combination, eschewing all supplementation can put you and your animals in a bad situation.
That said, I don't think it's any surprise to anyone on this board, or anyone who's had any experience with cattle, that a fat yearling bull is not in 'breeding condition' and is going to have to 'lose some weight' when he goes out to pasture and has to work for a living.
Diven's claim about a grain-fed bull 'shooting blanks' is a red herring. That can happen, even with a 'forage-developed' bull; I've experienced it.
'Ruined forever'? I don't think so. There are thousands of bulls around the country, developed on a grain ration that are just fine, and work for many years.
Current senior herd sire here was developed on a grain ration, and is now going into his seventh year of breeding (split spring/fall seasons), with no fertility issues to date.
Junior herd sire, home-raised on forages, with a little DDG through the winter - has been developed just like the cow herd - and is, at 2 yrs, half the bull the senior sire was when purchased at 14 months; still not sure ol' junior is tall enough to breed the larger cows in the herd - but he's mainly here to breed heifers for terminal calves.
I can take studies and interviews and cherry-pick bits and pieces to support whatever point I want to put forward - and Mr. Nation does that consistently - but that doesn't necessarily mean that those perspectives are always right, or will work in every environment or under every management scheme.
Some of the Pharo cattle are good, some not so much; same could be said of SAV, Gardiner, etc. cattle. I've mostly opted not to use animals directly from either program - but, if I see a bull from either place that offers something complementary to my herd - or to individual cows in the herd - I'll use 'em.
As a commercial producer, I need to be producing what my buyers want. Pharo, Ohlde, Gardiner, or Schaff cattle may or may not work in any given setting - you've gotta figure out what's best for you and your marketing plan.
Of course, the good thing about cattle breeding is that you can always sell your mistakes by the pound.
Know of too many trainwrecks from folks - especially dairymen - trying to follow his 'advice' as gospel. Forage only is great, if you have the right climate, soil, grass, stocking rate, and cattle - but in many instances, if you don't have that perfect combination, eschewing all supplementation can put you and your animals in a bad situation.
That said, I don't think it's any surprise to anyone on this board, or anyone who's had any experience with cattle, that a fat yearling bull is not in 'breeding condition' and is going to have to 'lose some weight' when he goes out to pasture and has to work for a living.
Diven's claim about a grain-fed bull 'shooting blanks' is a red herring. That can happen, even with a 'forage-developed' bull; I've experienced it.
'Ruined forever'? I don't think so. There are thousands of bulls around the country, developed on a grain ration that are just fine, and work for many years.
Current senior herd sire here was developed on a grain ration, and is now going into his seventh year of breeding (split spring/fall seasons), with no fertility issues to date.
Junior herd sire, home-raised on forages, with a little DDG through the winter - has been developed just like the cow herd - and is, at 2 yrs, half the bull the senior sire was when purchased at 14 months; still not sure ol' junior is tall enough to breed the larger cows in the herd - but he's mainly here to breed heifers for terminal calves.
I can take studies and interviews and cherry-pick bits and pieces to support whatever point I want to put forward - and Mr. Nation does that consistently - but that doesn't necessarily mean that those perspectives are always right, or will work in every environment or under every management scheme.
Some of the Pharo cattle are good, some not so much; same could be said of SAV, Gardiner, etc. cattle. I've mostly opted not to use animals directly from either program - but, if I see a bull from either place that offers something complementary to my herd - or to individual cows in the herd - I'll use 'em.
As a commercial producer, I need to be producing what my buyers want. Pharo, Ohlde, Gardiner, or Schaff cattle may or may not work in any given setting - you've gotta figure out what's best for you and your marketing plan.
Of course, the good thing about cattle breeding is that you can always sell your mistakes by the pound.
mrvictordomino
Well-known member
Forage only is great, if you have the right climate, soil, grass, stocking rate, and cattle - but in many instances, if you don't have that perfect combination, eschewing all supplementation can put you and your animals in a bad situation.
A very true statement. Being from KY it would be hard to develope bulls on fescue based pastures without some form of supplementation. Other forages can be grown to develope bulls on a forage based diet, but with summers here that are so unpredictable as far as moisture is concerned, I elect not to try. Bulls here are weaned (March) and are put on the best pasture with a 13% protein grower ration (For those in KY-TN familiar with CPC Commodities, Grower 13% LS) that is high in fiber, low in energy (No corn) but gives supplemental protein for the fescue during the summer months. Bulls have access to this until the first week og September when they are then scanned. The rest of the fall/winter they are fed free choice hay and about 4-5 pounds of the same mixture. Bulls are then offered the following spring at about 17-19 months of age and they are in good condition, not fat but in good condition where they do not need to be "Let down" before turning out. Been doing this for several years now with the fall calving herd and seems to be working fine. Funny though, when talking to some cattlemen, most will say they like that sort of developement plan, however, will then and go purchase the fattest, poor moving bull in a sale.....Have always been told that fat sells. Pretty much true I guess, but I will not feed them that hard.
A very true statement. Being from KY it would be hard to develope bulls on fescue based pastures without some form of supplementation. Other forages can be grown to develope bulls on a forage based diet, but with summers here that are so unpredictable as far as moisture is concerned, I elect not to try. Bulls here are weaned (March) and are put on the best pasture with a 13% protein grower ration (For those in KY-TN familiar with CPC Commodities, Grower 13% LS) that is high in fiber, low in energy (No corn) but gives supplemental protein for the fescue during the summer months. Bulls have access to this until the first week og September when they are then scanned. The rest of the fall/winter they are fed free choice hay and about 4-5 pounds of the same mixture. Bulls are then offered the following spring at about 17-19 months of age and they are in good condition, not fat but in good condition where they do not need to be "Let down" before turning out. Been doing this for several years now with the fall calving herd and seems to be working fine. Funny though, when talking to some cattlemen, most will say they like that sort of developement plan, however, will then and go purchase the fattest, poor moving bull in a sale.....Have always been told that fat sells. Pretty much true I guess, but I will not feed them that hard.
mrvictordomino":383h5ev2 said:
What truly amazes me is the man who will go to a sale where the bulls have been pushed pretty hard and insist on buying a thinner bull. All he has proved is that he can't gain well on good feed!
3waycross":2xnydc37 said:
I'm not an Allan nation fan myself....his rotational grazing books are way behind the times IMO.
BTW any study that you would read would be "biased" according to you. If you really want an unbiased test on fertility just compare your semen tests with PCC's.... I'm sure Kit would accomodate you.
Since you are in the bull selling business I have no doubt you have to feed a lot of corn to your bulls because as was mentioned MRVICTOR...the average bull buyer thinks that the biggest and fattest bull in the pen is the best and that's what they want. My dad used to sell a few registered angus bulls 40 to 50 years ago and said the same thing......they always wanted the biggest and fattest one in the pen thinking that bull was the best one.
sim.-ang.king
Well-known member
If a bull won't gain on feed, what do you think his sons are going to do? Since the majority of calves end up in a feedlot someday. If you're worried about if they're too fat, don't buy them the day before you need them, and then you can get them to the weight you want.Banjo":1s3baeaw said:
and probably wouldn't hurt to be able judge cattle either.
