Odd Estrus Cycle

[inyati13]

An angus heifer (Princess), 15 months old, 900 pounds. I have watched her and she has a very regular cycle. My first AI attempt was about 22 days ago. On Thursday (26th) about 10 am, I observed other cows showing her attention. Sniffing and following her with their nose to her rear. My book had her to come in on the 25th. When I left the farm at about 4 pm, she was still not standing. So assumed she would probably stand in the night and I made a note to breed her on Friday morning. On Friday morning, a couple other cows were sniffing and trying to mount her. They were putting their head on her and making a grunt sound, but I saw no mounting and she was not interested. I looked at her vulva and it was pink and moist. There was mucus on her tail. I thought it made sense that she had stood during the night. Her tail hair stood up. It was now 24 hours since her first observed estrus behavior. I bred her at 10 am. It took some effort to get started into the cervix because her cervix was very soft, got the pipette about an inch beyond the cervix, I dropped the semen just where I wanted it.

When I got to the farm about 9 am on Saturday, I was amazed to see another heifer sniffing her and following Princess around with her nose at Princess's butt. I thought it should have been over. In fact, I have cows that complete the process in 24 hours but this was now going on 48 hours!!!! I looked and she had some mucus. I decided not to breed again.

Today, 9:00 am. First, thing I do is check Princess. Fresh blood on her tail and the area immediately below the vulva. Usually, I see blood on her the second day post ovulation. So I think she would have ovulated about the same time I AI her.

Question, did I get her at the right time? This is going to be an interesting case. I feel like the AI went well even though entering the cervix was difficult. Preparation was good and injection of semen was right on spot. But I have never had one confuse me so badly with the timing.

 

[dun]

You'll know if the timing was right if she settles, but won;t necessarrily know if she doesn;t. Odd length cycles aren;t all that unusual, particularly if the weather has been really changable.

 

[glacierridge]

They are all so different.
What's good for one won't work for the other.
We have had them bleed off 4 days after breeding and settle, be bred after the slime and bleed off one day after and settle, even had my cow cycle two weeks after a heat when she was hitting two fairs in close time.

Make notes.
I'm getting to the point where that's what I think is right.
Lol.
I know my Holly is a weird one, we need to breed her the day after her sliming to get her bred.
Happened twice now so must be just her thing.

 

[Kscattle]

I think I would have given a shot of gnrh when I bred if I were unsure.

 

[wbvs58]

Ron, I find the heifers hard to read when I synchronise them especially when a group are done together. If I rely on heat detection after the cidr comes out and the PG I don't do real good. Some that are not on heat get jumped on as well as the ones on heat. I think they just all like to get involved.
This year I just used fixed time and inseminated them all at 52hrs after cidr and PG and Ciderol at 24hr after the cidr and I had good results. It certainly was easier than try and work out who was on and who wasn't at the 48hrs.
Note. We are still allowed to use Ciderol which is Oestrodiol benzoate 1mg/ml on beef animals. It is very cheap and a little bit at 24 hrs gives the ovaries a bit of a tickle up and hastens the development of the follicle.

 

[inyati13]

I think I would have given a shot of gnrh when I bred if I were unsure.

Fire Sweep Ranch does all her cattle AI. She recently said that the instructor of an AI class she recently took stated that GnRH is of no value when a cow/heifer is at the point in the cycle when she is being bred. I did a google read. Here is what I found: GnRH is a Gonadotrophin releasing hormone which is produced by the brain and acts on the pituitary gland. The effects of this hormone include a better development of the corpus luteum, a stimulus for the corpus luteum to produce progesterone and the ovulation of dominant or mature follicles. By the time the cow is in the prime window for breeding, the role of the gonadotropin has come and gone. The pituitary by this time has been stimulated by gonadotropins and has already synthesized and released FSH and LH into the blood. GnRH may not do any harm at this point but there does not appear to be any value. There is logic in his statement and if Fire Sweep Ranch can come on here, she can elaborate on what he said.

What Ken is talking about using is not a gonadotropin but an Oestrogen which goes directly via the blood to the mature follicle and hastens the follicle to release the oocyte. Not sure that Ciderol is available here. Ken stated, "Note. We are still allowed to use Ciderol which is Oestrodiol benzoate 1mg/ml on beef animals. It is very cheap and a little bit at 24 hrs gives the ovaries a bit of a tickle up and hastens the development of the follicle."

 

[bse]

When the breeding rod comes out gnrh goes in for me. A repro guru not an A I instructor explained it to me pretty simple, it costs about 2 bucks and another straw can be 25 bucks if that egg is just waiting to fall off it gives it a little help. If its not needed its like a dose of water does nothing. Im sure it would apply more on a sync type deal than natural heat but mine get it either way.

 

[inyati13]

When the breeding rod comes out gnrh goes in for me. A repro guru not an A I instructor explained it to me pretty simple, it costs about 2 bucks and another straw can be 25 bucks if that egg is just waiting to fall off it gives it a little help. If its not needed its like a dose of water does nothing. Im sure it would apply more on a sync type deal than natural heat but mine get it either way.

bse, if you knew for a fact that GnRH offers no value, would you continue the practice? If we acknowledge GnRH is a gonadotrophin, it stimulates the anterior pituitary to synthesis LH and FSH. By the time, you are doing the AI, the pituitary has already been stimulated by natural gonadotrophin produced in the bovine's brain. When you inject the GnRH at the time of AI, that process has already been underway. I guess someone must have believed it had value because it is a common practice. But what Ken is saying is that injecting Ciderol, you go directly to the follicle that is producing the oocycte and stimulate its release. GnRH has to cycle through the pituitary and stimualte the production of FSH. It will be intersting to get additional input. I would find value in learning here in this thread if those who are using GnRH at the time of AI are getting any benefit. Let's watch this thread and hope we get other input, may help all of us AI users.

NOTE: If you are working off of natural heats vs Synchronization protocols the approach may be different. But even with sync. protocols, GnRH is used early in the protocol to get the follicle going, mature it and release it. That is where the FSH and LH perform. I was reviewing my SS sync. protocols and they do show another injection of GnRH at the time of AI. But I think what is going down here is that research is indicating the GnRH injection at AI is of no value. We shall see.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Oh Inyati, I love your deep conversations! :nod:
What you say is true; when we went to the Genex annual meeting, the guest speaker from Zoetis (not sure if they just sponsored the meal or he works for them also), who is the head person for the Dairy Unit at a top notch university out here (if I remember correctly, his name was Dan Swearengen) stated the the group about the GnRH, and that if "it makes you feel better, keep using it". I pulled him aside after the meeting, because I had always been told that those cows that are in a funny window of time to give the shot "just in case" and I used to keep a bottle of Cysterelin in my refrigerator, and used it often. When we picked up a cow for the second time AI, we would use it. He informed me that the research shows that it does no good, for reasons Ron stated above. But if it made me feel better, it was cheap insurance. Now I am all for cutting corners on the cost of this operation, if it does not affect my bottom line, and that is pregnancies. So, this fall, we did not use it. Not once. We breed on natural heats, and out of 10 cows, three came back into heat. And guess what, all three we used the same AI stud on, and after looking at my tank log, I have had ZERO conceptions on that semen (we have used 12 straws). Those three cows have been bred a second time, and unfortunately the first cow that cycled back I used the same semen on again (I had not figured out our problems with conception until the other two came into heat), but the other two we used a different AI sire on. I bet, when they are due to cycle next week, that the first cow will come back in and the other two will stick.
Now for your personal issue with her heat, for the sake of the reader I will repeat what I have told you MANY times Ron, GET SOME TAIL CHALK! There would have been no question as to when she stood if she had a stripe on her tail, because it would have been gone when she was hot! Cows cycle when we do not watch, and it is amazing how many can fool you and stand during the night and you never saw a sign! Now, I know you know your cattle well, but it removes all doubt when you have another visual tool to evaluate your standing heats. Another thing, I ALWAYS chalk when I AI, that way I can determine if she stood AFTER I bred her and decide what to do next, if anything.
Just my humble experience after many years of relying solely on AI.

 

[TexasBred]

If it does no good how is it "Cheap insurance"?? Sounds like they guy is a bit wishy washy and simply says what he thinks you want to hear.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

If it does no good how is it "Cheap insurance"?? Sounds like they guy is a bit wishy washy and simply says what he thinks you want to hear.

Maybe cheap insurance wasn't the words he used exactly, but he basically meant to say that if it made ME feel better about using it, then go ahead. In other words, it has not proven to "hurt" anything, but it has also not proven to help. Kind of like the placebo affect - when studies are done testing a new product, usually research is set up to where one group gets what appears to be the same (like a sugar pill instead of the actual medicine, or a shot of saline solution instead of a shot of the actual treatment), and they have similar results to the group that actually received the treatment. Does that mean the control group got something out of nothing? It is a perceived notion, therefore it must have worked! Kind of an extreme example, but I am just trying to point out that he was not "wishy washy" as you put it. I put his words into my own interpretation of what he was saying. And I have backed off of using the GnRH (as stated above, have not used it this fall breeding), with no noticeable side effects, except my pocket book is a bit heavier! But hey, it is my savings, not yours :nod:

 

[pdfangus]

I agree with Fire Sweep Ranch about the chalk.....

that is a cheap tool to use....

I synched and bred half a dozen two weeks ago....three showed heat and were still riding when I bred them....
so I did not rechalk them as it would have been ridden right off.....

the other three still have their chalk so I will know if the bull takes and interest in any of them,,,,

thinking about rechalking the first three between now and the weekend.

 

[wbvs58]

Ron from what I understand over here is that the original protocols for synchronisation were reliant on using oestrogen Ciderol especially on anoestrus cows. We gave 2mg when the cidr went in to try and stir up a bit of follicular activity then cidr was pulled on day 8 along with PG. You then heat detect on day 10 and inseminate those standing and inject the rest with 1mg Ciderol and then they will all be on heat and get inseminated on day 11.
It then became undesirable to use Oestrogens on cows that are directly producing into our food chain such as dairy cows you know young girls big breasts and the these direct hormones were banned. There was a bit of a panic as Ciderol was very effective and cheap and a bit of helter skelter took place to look for an alternative that was just as effective and they came up with using these indirect stimulating hormones and so the new protocols were deveolped and reportedly just as effective.
This may explain the urge to use the GnRH around breeding as a bit of a hangover from the Ciderol days.
In Australia Oestrogens are banned from use on dairy cattle but are allowed on beef cows. I think that in the US they have been taken off the market completely. This is what happened in Australia but may have been different in the US.
Yes Ron I religiously use tail paint on them when I synchronise even when doing fixed time. It is comforting to know that they had been getting ridden. The heifer group I still have trouble reading the paint as I think some that are not quite there get jumped on a bit as well in a group of randy young teenagers. The ones that are truly in usually have very little paint left on their ar$e$.
Ken

 

[bse]

This may be one of those things that there is no answer for just whatever makes you feel good it seems it depends on who your talking to the one im talking about that's all he does repro work for the university so im sure he has tried it all in many different ways, don't mean hes right id like to really know because by the time I draw the shot and give it i could almost breed another cow. What I do know and have seen on a sync protocol the non responders if you have the time run them through give them the GNRH and in a few hours several of those will be in heat so something is happening. On the protocols for TAI it says AI- GNRH not just the ones showing heat.
Doubt ill change if I just catch 1 out of 13 im at break even and a calf.
The oestrodial is a great thing it is not approved by the FDA or whoever for use in cattle in the US but if you implant your calves with Synovex the ingredient is estrodial it is good stuff(I think)

 

[TexasBred]

If it does no good how is it "Cheap insurance"?? Sounds like they guy is a bit wishy washy and simply says what he thinks you want to hear.

Maybe cheap insurance wasn't the words he used exactly, but he basically meant to say that if it made ME feel better about using it, then go ahead. In other words, it has not proven to "hurt" anything, but it has also not proven to help. Kind of like the placebo affect - when studies are done testing a new product, usually research is set up to where one group gets what appears to be the same (like a sugar pill instead of the actual medicine, or a shot of saline solution instead of a shot of the actual treatment), and they have similar results to the group that actually received the treatment. Does that mean the control group got something out of nothing? It is a perceived notion, therefore it must have worked! Kind of an extreme example, but I am just trying to point out that he was not "wishy washy" as you put it. I put his words into my own interpretation of what he was saying. And I have backed off of using the GnRH (as stated above, have not used it this fall breeding), with no noticeable side effects, except my pocket book is a bit heavier! But hey, it is my savings, not yours :nod:

Wonderful. Wondered why he would say something that was basically nothing. Now I know. ;-)

 

[regolith]

The cidirol is absolutely banned in NZ I think. It's one of those deals where no residue could be detected but it's a hormone so the market decided it shouldn't be in the cows they bought milk from :help:
From what I've read, the new cidr protocols get at least 5 - 10% lower conception rates than they used to when oestradiol (cidirol) was involved.

 

[inyati13]

This may be one of those things that there is no answer for just whatever makes you feel good it seems it depends on who your talking to the one im talking about that's all he does repro work for the university so im sure he has tried it all in many different ways, don't mean hes right id like to really know because by the time I draw the shot and give it i could almost breed another cow. What I do know and have seen on a sync protocol the non responders if you have the time run them through give them the GNRH and in a few hours several of those will be in heat so something is happening. On the protocols for TAI it says AI- GNRH not just the ones showing heat.
Doubt ill change if I just catch 1 out of 13 im at break even and a calf.
The oestrodial is a great thing it is not approved by the FDA or whoever for use in cattle in the US but if you implant your calves with Synovex the ingredient is estrodial it is good stuff(I think)

Barry, I think you said it. Probably going to take some time and additional research. One thing we all agree, it is not hurting anything. I have cystorelin in storage but never use it unless I have a cystic cow to treat.
Thanks.

 

[regolith]

and I concur on the opinion that tail chalk would help not just with identification, but also with timing of heat.
The 'pre-heat' behaviour can go on for up to two days at times. Whereas the biggest clue in the first post that the heifer had stood was the 'tail hair standing up' - any heat detection aid would have been triggered and stayed triggered after the hair lay flat again.

Ken, have you seen non-pregnant cattle developing udders recently? My vet mentioned that it could happen occasionally after I told him one of my yearlings had done so - she calved and milked normally as a two year old. There's still the very remote possibility that she might have got close enough to one of my weaner bulls at some stage, but she was definitely not pregnant when she developed the udder at 14 - 15 months old and never seen to slip.

 

[Kscattle]

I think I would have given a shot of gnrh when I bred if I were unsure.

I guess I was under the impression that you never saw her standing in heat, thus you bred her anyway. If you bred her early or too late the gnrh may have helped stick her. The article you quoted was talking about observed heats, but it seemed as if you did not observe heat, but bred her on sniffing tails, acting differently. Had you actually seen her standing, this post would not exist, and I wouldn't have recommended gnrh. I personally don't use it unless I'm unsure of the timing, if I see them standing, I breed and turn her out.

 

[wbvs58]

I think I would have given a shot of gnrh when I bred if I were unsure.

I guess I was under the impression that you never saw her standing in heat, thus you bred her anyway. If you bred her early or too late the gnrh may have helped stick her. The article you quoted was talking about observed heats, but it seemed as if you did not observe heat, but bred her on sniffing tails, acting differently. Had you actually seen her standing, this post would not exist, and I wouldn't have recommended gnrh. I personally don't use it unless I'm unsure of the timing, if I see them standing, I breed and turn her out.

Yes but this post does exist and quite a few have contributed to it and given us all a bit to think about.
It has been a good discussion.
Regolith, I have not seen non pregnant cows developing udders but then I am only looking at my own now. Not working any more.
Ken