No Fertilizer

[SRBeef]

Adjustments of stocking rates to take care of the forage is a cattleman's first priority. Proper stocking can make the difference between a profit or a loss.

I think this is the key also. As a newcomer, I have been struggling with this "stocking rate". I need a certain number of lbs of cattle to sell to pay the bills but have limited land.

This year we started out very wet with lots of grass everywhere. Then the spigot turned off and grass has been slow coming.

I have been very thankful for the Red Clover I notill/interseeded this spring it has been amazing. However I'm still not seeing the pastures recover as fast as I need them to in the past 30 days or so.

We did a major fencing project which finished last week. To keep the cattle out of the way of the bulldozer etc I had to confine them to an overgrown weedy area on the back side of a dam and brushy growth all along the edge of the woods for about 2 weeks. To put it mildly it was not picturesque pasture. I have been watching their condition and even though they bellow a bit when they see me they have done remarkably well on this stuff - and really cleaned up an area that is difficult to mow!

I got 2 weeks of beef growth out of an area that really was not something you'd think of as useful. It was all I had at the time.

This time of year maybe this is what I need to do. I wouldn't do this near calving time but maybe right now is the time to use the less than ideal pasture areas. I know I'm pushing the envelope with stocking rate but I don't see how you can go up and down fast enough. I did put out a bale of hay for them but they will eat about anything green including weeds and tree leaves before they eat hay. I think we are all learning some new ways to be efficient.

Beef in this country however may be heading to pricing as it is in Europe. Beef is not cheap there but people appreciate quality.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Mob grazing/micro farming/land clearing/duff removal are fine with beef cows. Getting decent production out of growing or dairy cattle seems to be a bigger challenge.

Has anyone figured out how to mob graze effectively with stockers or dairy cattle?

 

[novatech]

Mob grazing/micro farming/land clearing/duff removal are fine with beef cows. Getting decent production out of growing or dairy cattle seems to be a bigger challenge.

Has anyone figured out how to mob graze effectively with stockers or dairy cattle?

I actually thought they invented it. With stockers we did it very effectively back in the late 50's and 60's. We had no fancy name for it. We just said move them to the next pasture, the one their in is grazed out. Grandpa even used it to fertilize corn fields letting the cattle (dairy) graze down small sections of legumes at a time. Today I see it used more often with stockers than anything else.
I really don,t think this is so new but rather something old brought back forward. In ancient times they would run very concentrated herds on farm land along the Nile River to improve the soil.

 

[rc]

I just bought enough fertilizer to do about 10 acres and ran out before finishing the field. It is very noticeable where I ran out too! It's like you can't afford to fertilize but you can't afford not to.

 

[Jogeephus]

To put it mildly it was not picturesque pasture. I have been watching their condition and even though they bellow a bit when they see me they have done remarkably well on this stuff - and really cleaned up an area that is difficult to mow!

I got 2 weeks of beef growth out of an area that really was not something you'd think of as useful. It was all I had at the time.

This time of year maybe this is what I need to do. I wouldn't do this near calving time but maybe right now is the time to use the less than ideal pasture areas. I know I'm pushing the envelope with stocking rate but I don't see how you can go up and down fast enough. I did put out a bale of hay for them but they will eat about anything green including weeds and tree leaves before they eat hay. I think we are all learning some new ways to be efficient.

When they were eating "weeds" you were definitely making money. There is a saying here that says, "the woods aren't good for your cattle but the cattle are good for the woods". I use the woods as a safety valve. When things get rough, I turn them in the woods. If necessary, I give them syrup but most times I don't have to. It gives me a warm feeling watching them eat weeds and getting slick doing it. Sometimes, the time they are in the woods is ample time for the grass to get ahead of them. Sometimes, this buys you the extra time that you need. I have plans to extend this safety valve to include several more acres when and if I get the time and money to do so.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I think that we all know of things we could do to help ourselves, but cheap fertilizer prices have made us lazy about doing them. And now we have to do things differently and we are being stubborn about trying some new ideas. Its like some of the snake oil that was posted back in the spring when everbody was bellacheing about the cost of fertilze. I didn"t attack the whole farm with it but i tryed it on about 8 ac. it is not commerical fertilze but it did work. If we don"t try we will never no.

 

[Jogeephus]

I have a friend who gets lime and nitrogen put on his pastures free of charge each year and has been doing so for as long as I can remember. He still bellyaches about not making enough money on cattle. I only wish I lived closer so I could get in on the deal too but freight throws me out.

 

[nap]

Another idea you might consider for hay fields is to MIG or strip graze every other year. This should return a lot of nutrients to the soil and hold down fertilizer costs, which in turn would hold down the cost of buying hay that year. Besides think of all the work you would save.

 

[Jogeephus]

If fertilize prices doubles agin what do you do then? When it costs more to produce the crop than the crop is worth we will all be out of busniess.

If this happens again and cattle prices don't keep up then I will reduce my stocking rate to where no fertilizer will be neccessary. Of course, if this happens and I find it is not worth raising them then I will probably make the UN people happy by liquidating the herd. Of course their glee will only be short lived for I will then begin liquidating land too. Ideally my timing on this will be at the first of the year to give me ample time to carry all my profit down to some little known island I have dreamed of retiring on. From here, I suspect I will moon Washington each morning in thanks for their oversight of the monopoly laws and their over-regulation of environmental laws that have run the smaller fertilizer producers out of business leading us into this mess. Just a thought.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I guess that would work Jo, if that what you want to do any way. But after watching a few of the hurricanes i don't think island life is for me. I kinda like deep hollows and long ridges.

 

[Phil in Tupelo]

Several good comments and thoughts, but no one seemed to mention Ph and liming. I for one know my pastures need lime to bring the ph up so that any fertilizer paid for and applied to the land will be completely used by the forage. Someone posted a URL last week that indicated the % of fertilizer not used when ph was too low up to a ph of 7 with fertilizer utililzed 100%. If your ph isn't where it needs to be lime may be to most sensible imput.

Also drought has gotten a lot of attention and the thing that has come out of that is to decrease stocking rates. In my area 2 acres to the cow/calf unit would be the norm. When drought hits that may need to be adjusted to 3 acres and up per cow/calf unit. It would seems that maybe a possible way to deal with high fertilizer is to adjust stocking rates to more acres per unit, at least until more study/consideration can be used to determine the next reasonable move.

As my neighbor indicated this week, that after about 8 inches of rain in August, he is looking at some of the best pastures he's seen in his 50 plus years. I have put out 1 ton of lime per acre two years ago and then skipped one year and put about 1 1/2 tons to 2 tons per acre this year. Add the 8 inches of rain to that and the pastures look good.

If you really want to kill a good stand of most any kind of forage, just cut hay and don't replace any NPK with fertilizer. When the cold weather hits in Jan/Feb you can forget any grass in April.

 

[dun]

Adjusting stocking rates for dorught is only part of the picture. More grazing managment is needed (MIG) so that what grass there is will be more fully utilized.

 

[Phil in Tupelo]

dun,

Absolutely. Crossfencing pastures is something I haven't gotten serious about as I just can't get a handle on water and hooking up to my working pens. Both drought and high costs of fertilizer, feed and hay may make me look at all this in more detail and seriously.

 

[Bluestem]

I have a couple of hay fields that the owner wants me to cut and bale every year just to get their ag. exemption. I cut it once a year and it seem to make fair hay. Although I doubt that the protein is very high the cattle seem to do well on it. The meadows are a mixture of prairie grasses (mostly little bluestem) an the most abundant legumes Illinois Bundle Flower. I cut the hay after it has seeded out, replenishing the legume for the following year. Through the winter burr clover covers the ground and is left to put some N back into the soil.
I can grant you that these meadows do not produce the bumper crops that the hybrid grasses produce with added nutrition but I can also see where a natural production of native grasses is possible, although far less productive. I can also understand where native grasses get their N from (legumes) but where does the P and K come from?
We may be getting to the point that these prestine pastures of hybrid grasses are no longer the order of the day. They do have high input costs and really do nothing to replenish the soil. The mixed pastures of selected low input, drought hardy grasses combined with winter and summer legumes may be the saviour of the future cattleman.
Adjustments of stocking rates to take care of the forage is a cattleman's first priority. Proper stocking can make the difference between a profit or a loss.

The hay could be very good. Illinois Bundle Flower is very high in protein. You could increase production by adding another native grass, such as Indian grass.
As far as P and K. Think outside the box for a moment. Biological Transmutation. Microbes can change sodium to K. P can increase in soil. But we can not explain where it came from. Current knowledge in Chemistry and Physics can not explain it. Mycorrhizal fungi supply plants with P as well as other nutrients.

There has been a lot of good discussion on this topic. But I challenge all to think outside the box.

 

[Phil in Tupelo]

Well, I have known that on all legumes you should use some kind of moly to coat the seed (soybeans and clovers) to help the plants form N. But I have never heard of and never considered using other tiny critters to produce other favorable NPK that can be used by the plants. Just never heard of it! I guess that means, too much "Progressive Farmer" and too little "StockmanGrassFarmer"!

 

[novatech]

As usual, Bluestem, a bundle of information. This can also explain why resting a pasture that was severely overstock came back to life after a rest and then basically under-stocking.
I have done a bit of research on the Illinois Bundleflower. I went out and harvested seed. Then I took your suggestion on putting the seed in a lick tub to be dispersed throughout the pasture. It worked great. Thanks.

 

[Texas PaPaw]

Mob grazing/micro farming/land clearing/duff removal are fine with beef cows. Getting decent production out of growing or dairy cattle seems to be a bigger challenge.

Has anyone figured out how to mob graze effectively with stockers or dairy cattle?

Steve

Neil Dennis in Canada has been mob grazing stockers for several years. There were dvd's of his presentation last year in Nebraska available from the neb extension service. If you call 402-288-5611 they should be able to tell you how to order a copy. It is a very good presentation.

 

[Bluestem]

Thinking outside of the box.
Here is interesting news-
"French scientists have shown that you can record the frequency of a molecule, play it to another molecule and the signal itself can take the place of chemicals in initiating biological processes."
Read it again. Give it some thought. You won't read about it in the mainstream Ag. press.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Mob grazing/micro farming/land clearing/duff removal are fine with beef cows. Getting decent production out of growing or dairy cattle seems to be a bigger challenge.

Has anyone figured out how to mob graze effectively with stockers or dairy cattle?

Steve

Neil Dennis in Canada has been mob grazing stockers for several years. There were dvd's of his presentation last year in Nebraska available from the neb extension service. If you call xxx they should be able to tell you how to order a copy. It is a very good presentation.

Order form is on line at www.madison.unl.edu under ultra high stocking density. One DVD for $30 or three for $75.

 

[Bluestem]

I've always hated burning wood piles. Always thought it was a waste. I would use the remaining ashes from the burned wood piles on my fields, its high in K. I try to run as much tree trash though the wood chipper as possible. Have some willow trees that got away from me. To big for the chipper. In this months issue of National Geographic there is an article on soil down in the amazon. They are not sure how it was formed, but feel it was man made. It is very fertile. It is almost all carbon. So, I'm going to take my willow tree trunks and turn them into charcoal. Spread the charcoal on the pastures. Started building my little charcoal cooker today. Another source of cheap on farm fertilizer. Search the web for "Terra Preta".
Here is a link- http://deltafarmpress.com/news/051114-terra-preta/