Navicular Horse

[Arthur]

How many have one and what do you do with them?

 

[msscamp]

Since you state the horse has Navicular Disease, I'm assuming you've already been to the vet and that the horse is lame/unridable. Is this true Navicular Disease (if so, I would probably simply put the horse down), or is the Navicular bone rotating due to foundering? How far has it rotated? Have you talked to a good farrier, as well? What you do with them depends on the stage of disease, cause of disease, what (if any) options are available to offset the disease, whether you're willing/are able to pursue those options, and whether you're able to continue absorbing the cost of feeding the horse while it is 'recovering'. To the best of my knowledge - true Navicular Disease has no cure, so you are probably postponing the inevitable. If this is a case of founder, depending on how bad it was, there is a possibility of pulling the horse out of it - that would be up to your farrier and vet.

 

[Arthur]

NO founder.

The comments made are 1- Quarter Horse with small feet - 2 - if x-rays were seen prior to seeing the horse would not think much of it. 3- because being a Quarter Horse the diagnose is severe.

This is the second horse this year of ours to be diagnosed and by two different vets.

NO rotations - very small lesions.

My husband is a farrier and is doing exactly what the vets are telling him and they have told him that what they are seeing is correct.

We are giving bute and going with Adequan for now and winter is coming - resting them.

This spring both of them were fine and we did a couple nice trailrides with no lameness issues.

We had a hot dry summer with the pasture and ground hard and chopped up.

So - we will see.

 

[Alan]

My husband is a farrier and is doing exactly what the vets are telling him and they have told him that what they are seeing is correct.

You have a long, hard, expensive losing battle a head of you, but is is only your husbands and yours to choose to fight. Best you can do is prolong life and light riding for a while.

Is your husband a farrier by trade or on the weekends? Not trying to be rude. The reason I ask is that Vets are not farriers and they should not pretend they know how to be one. For a farrier to correctly treat a horse like yours takes plenty of skill and experience.

Just my 2 cents,
Alan

 

[Arthur]

Alan - Totally understand what you are saying.

I feel the battle is expensive and not a winning situation. I was just curious as to what other people have done.

Navicular seems to be so common now that someone must own one.

Hard to go out there every day and seeing the lameness or not seeing it that bad, saddling up only to unsaddle and be more aggravated than when you started.

You hope for more. Mentally the decision you have to make wears on you. Out of site out of mind I suppose. Two horses in one year is hard to swallow.

 

[msscamp]

I feel the battle is expensive and not a winning situation. I was just curious as to what other people have done.

Navicular is never a winning situation, and I'm very sorry that you are faced with it.

Navicular seems to be so common now that someone must own one.

There are things you can look for to help prevent it, though. Way back when - I was a student in a Vet Tech program. As part of the Anatomy & Physiology course, it was explained that Navicular is much, much more common in horses with upright pasterns. If I remember correctly, the reason is that the upright pasterns prevent the flexibility that is required to absorb shock and support the body.

Hard to go out there every day and seeing the lameness or not seeing it that bad, saddling up only to unsaddle and be more aggravated than when you started.

Yes, that would be very difficult.

You hope for more. Mentally the decision you have to make wears on you. Out of site out of mind I suppose. Two horses in one year is hard to swallow.

Yes, you do - but hoping does not make it happen, perhaps a more proactive approach is in order? I've been where you are - more than once, and it's one of the hardest decisions I've ever made - but it needs to be made, and then followed through on. I truly hope I'm misunderstanding the "out of sight, out of mind", because that is not fair or right where the animal is concerned. I don't know the origin of these horses, but perhaps you might want to re-evaluate your buying/breeding standards?

 

[Arthur]

These horses do not have upright pasterns.

They do have very good bloodlines. Both were bought young. Because of the Quarter horse make up. Both were predisposed to Navicular.

They have done a lot for us and out of site, out of mind was not meant the way it sounds. They will always be in our minds.

For one - Adequan has seemed to work. We are going to try it on the other one for now and see what happens.

 

[msscamp]

Because of the Quarter horse make up. Both were predisposed to Navicular.

Would you mind expanding on that statement, please? We've had Quarter Horses for 50 years, and have never had a Navicular horse. I'm a bit confused as to why Quarter Horse breed predisposes an animal to Navicular Disease.

They have done a lot for us and out of site, out of mind was not meant the way it sounds. They will always be in our minds.

Good deal, I'm so happy to hear that. I'm not familiar with Adequan, but I sure hope it works for you.

 

[Chris H]

Because of the Quarter horse make up. Both were predisposed to Navicular.

Would you mind expanding on that statement, please? We've had Quarter Horses for 50 years, and have never had a Navicular horse. I'm a bit confused as to why Quarter Horse breed predisposes an animal to Navicular Disease.

They have done a lot for us and out of site, out of mind was not meant the way it sounds. They will always be in our minds.

Good deal, I'm so happy to hear that. I'm not familiar with Adequan, but I sure hope it works for you.

Quarter horses are particularly prone to the disease but it is unknown whether this is due to some hereditary factor or is related to conformation. The more pressure that is applied to the navicular bone from the deep flexor tendon, the more likely the horse will suffer from navicular disease.

Quarter horses and thoroughbreds have proportionally small feet and high body weight, which may explain the tendency towards development of navicular disease in these breeds.

 

[msscamp]

Because of the Quarter horse make up. Both were predisposed to Navicular.

Would you mind expanding on that statement, please? We've had Quarter Horses for 50 years, and have never had a Navicular horse. I'm a bit confused as to why Quarter Horse breed predisposes an animal to Navicular Disease.

They have done a lot for us and out of site, out of mind was not meant the way it sounds. They will always be in our minds.

Good deal, I'm so happy to hear that. I'm not familiar with Adequan, but I sure hope it works for you.

Quarter horses are particularly prone to the disease but it is unknown whether this is due to some hereditary factor or is related to conformation. The more pressure that is applied to the navicular bone from the deep flexor tendon, the more likely the horse will suffer from navicular disease.

Quarter horses and thoroughbreds have proportionally small feet and high body weight, which may explain the tendency towards development of navicular disease in these breeds.

Interesting. Thanks for the information! I wonder if ranch work plays a factor - since most ranch horses aren't shod, and shoes help to absorb concussion/impact.

 

[Chris H]

Interesting. Thanks for the information! I wonder if ranch work plays a factor - since most ranch horses aren't shod, and shoes help to absorb concussion/impact.

Actually, I'd argue that shoes reduce the ability of the hoof to withstand concussion/impact. Shoes prevent excess wear of a hoof on hard surfaces, also give some extra traction on some surfaces. I'd guess most ranch horses grow and are developed on range/pasture and not shod until work requires it. I'd think those horses would develop a larger hoof than one growing up confined to smaller areas and on softer surfaces as stalls and small paddocks tend to be.
The conventional horseshoe is very unforgiving and does not allow the horses hoof to flex normally under normal use, contributing to lameness.

 

[msscamp]

Interesting. Thanks for the information! I wonder if ranch work plays a factor - since most ranch horses aren't shod, and shoes help to absorb concussion/impact.

Actually, I'd argue that shoes reduce the ability of the hoof to withstand concussion/impact.

It depends on the circumstances. Our current set of circumstances dictates that our horses are kept in corrals with concrete aprons extending apprx 5' from the feedbunks (former feedlot). For whatever reason - they tend to like to stand on those aprons, stomp flies, and they subsequently go lame. Shoes alleviate that problem, because they protect the hoof, and absorb concussion/impact. Now, depending on how severe it is in a particular area, drought causes the ground to become very hard - sort of like concrete - and shoes in that situation would go a long ways towards protecting a horses feet from concussion/impact.

Shoes prevent excess wear of a hoof on hard surfaces, also give some extra traction on some surfaces. I'd guess most ranch horses grow and are developed on range/pasture and not shod until work requires it.

Obviously, I don't know about your area - but in this area horses are rarely shod unless they are salebarn/feedlot/performance horses.

I'd think those horses would develop a larger hoof than one growing up confined to smaller areas and on softer surfaces as stalls and small paddocks tend to be.

Not necessarily. We've had a number of horses who were raised and ran on range/pasture, were never shod, and they had smaller hooves. I think hoof development is a genetic thing, more than an environmental thing.

The conventional horseshoe is very unforgiving and does not allow the horses hoof to flex normally under normal use, contributing to lameness.

I have never seen that happen - in fact, I've seen our farrier take a horse who was hesitant to move, apply proper shoes, and the horse moved like an entirely different horse. All I can say is not all farriers are equal - some are leaps and bounds above others.

 

[Arthur]

Interesting comments - I did not realize that posts were being made.

For those that do not know what Adequan is -
Adequan Equine Proven to relieve the symptoms of osteoarthritis, Adequan (POLYSULFATED GLYCOSAMINOGLYCAN) breaks the destructive disease cycle, inhibits cartilage damage and stimulates the cartilage repair process. Adequan Equine Extensive studies of Adequan have proven it readily passes through the synovial membrane and is taken up into cartilage by diffusion. Vet recommended 1 injection for 5 weeks and than a monthly injection.

This has definitely helped one of them and a change in shoeing and pads. We will see what comes with the other one she is just getting her weekly dose.

The vet that looked at our one Quarter Horse - commented - If she would have seen the x-rays and not the horse, she would not have thought anything of the Navicular area. But since she saw the horse first it is severely navicular. And the comment made earlier - All Quarter Horses are predisposed to Navicular disease.

 

[Alan]

All Quarter Horses are predisposed to Navicular disease.

????? Just QH's? I think that is a very misleading statement. There are plenty of QH's that have enough hoof to support their weight. I do agree that in the halter circle the horses are bred to be more heavly muscled with smaller hooves, but as a breed in general, your vet made a dumb statement.

Is she a Equine Vet or a general practicioneer? Is she a newer Vet just out of school the in the last few years? If she was my Vet I would be having red flags popping up all ove the place.

Appy's are just as muscled as QH's, so are Paints, what about warm bloods? Draft horses?

Sorry for the rant, it just seemed like a dumb thing to say.

JMO,
Alan

 

[Arthur]

Actually we had both our horses diagnosed by two different vets from different clinics. One said it in those exact words-yes, young and in a teaching hospital, one said it differently with same meaning. I also thought what a dumb thing to say. It was very disturbing and has stuck with me.

We are doing our own thing with these two and trying different things to see what is going to work for now.

 

[Alan]

Thanks for the reply. I can understand a statement like; "Quarter Horses are one of the breeds that you see Navicular disease a little more often than you do in some of the other breeds".

I'm glad we agree that "All QH's are predisosed to Navicular disease" was bad, misleading statement.

Thanks,
Alan

 

[gnrhorses]

We have a horse that has had x-rays and found that there are small lolly pop type lesions on the navicular bone. And yes he is a appendix/quarter type horse, not registered now may have been in the past. Some lines of the QH, Paint & T-breds are predisposed to this syndrome/disease because they have smaller feet in relation to size. This is how they have been bred. Back when, breeders liked the bulk and body mass on spindly legs and feet. These where halter horses for the most part, now I don’t have anything against people that breed and show halter horses it was just the fad of the times. Now, that put more stress on the ligaments and tendons in the legs and feet. The navicular ligament & bone were the ones that suffered the most.

Getting back to our navic horse, Scooter. We bought Scooter at the local sale. I am very weary of buying at that sales barn because there are a lot of people that bring horses there to “get rid of them” and I have seen a few come out of there being drugged up or doped up to cover “things”. But I was in the market for a replacement cow horse for my husband and thought that I would go look. It was in February, one of the better sales that you can actually find a decent horse in. This horse can into the ring and I had not seen it prior to the sale but her was doing awesome cutting moves in the ring and I didn’t see any lameness or rents and dents on the horse. He seemed very laid back and I knew that I was buying a pig and a poke. Brought him home and he was ok for about 2 days then he started to show a little gimp, not much but just a slight offness (if that is a word!). Within two weeks he was “off” not lame but we know that something was wrong before we bought him at this point. Tried to work with our farrier, because his feet were in need of work when I bought him, but that was not enough. Had him x-rayed and that is when they told us that he had navic. I had not dealt with this before so I talk to a couple of vets to find out what my options were. They had me start him on Isoxaprine (a capulary dialator to help with blood flow to the hoof) and 2 grams of bute every day. This along with what my farrier, at the time, was doing really helped. He actually was usable to team pen on for about a year and a half. This spring, however, he started to come up lame even on the Isox. My farrier at the time, who is a master farrier and has been doing it for 52 years and was a teacher for farriers, was starting to make the horse lame after trimming and shoeing. We board horses and some of my clients had switched to a new young farrier in the area and I decided that I would let him take a look at Scooter and get his thoughts about what he would do for him. He contacted his mentor and the school in which he attended and came up with a plan that has been working quit well. My other farrier was trying build the foot up naturally, which I am all for, but if it is not working then you have to do something else. By the time that I had the new farrier take over Scooter had so much hoof that you could use the back of his egg bar shoe as a handle. New farrier cut almost 1/2 inch of hoof off all the way around. But didn’t change the angles. He then put on a different bar shoe with some mesh fabric. Then used Equi-Pak and filled the whole sole and frog up to the level of the bottom of the hoof. The next day we had a cattle drive to do on dirt roads which we were concerned about because he would have been sore the next day for sure previously, farrier had family crisis so date was changed to that date. Scoot was sound the whole day and every day since. It has been 8 weeks now and he is still doing well. We are considering cutting his bute down to 1 gram and see if there is a difference. We are just so happy with him and his “new” feet and he is, too!


Sorry this has gotten so long but I hope that it helps you to know that there are alternatives and there are ways to make our navic horses more comfortable and yes even usable!

 

[Arthur]

New farrier cut almost 1/2 inch of hoof off all the way around. But didn’t change the angles. He then put on a different bar shoe with some mesh fabric. Then used Equi-Pak and filled the whole sole and frog up to the level of the bottom of the hoof.

Can you tell me if this is a glue on shoe than because you are using the mesh fabric?

I would like to pass this on to my husband who is a farrier. If you could be exact on what is being used I would really appreciate it.

The bute works really well for our horse and we were giving 2 grams of bute but were told this is not good for more than 14 days. We should do couple days on and a couple days off.

Thanks for the response.

 

[gnrhorses]

Well because it was the first time I have seen it used I will give you web site info so that you can get true info on products that were used. The shes were nailed on and the caulking was pushed in after the shoes. The boards and mesh held the caulking in.

Equi-Thane Glue-on-Shoe & Hoof Repair Dispensing Gun
Equi-Mesh
Mixing Tips
Adhesive Foam Boards
Equi-Pak Hoof Packing
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_search_results.html?search=F3D5C08B8AD041A8A866F79BE773FEA3&display=no

or at the company web site, which has a lot more info
http://www.vettec.com/65/faq.html


To get Scooter trimmed (4), shod (2), and packed (2) was $120 but he said that he gave me a deal because we are friends.