ROCKSPRINGS
Well-known member
What is the best medication for a case of navel ill, LA200 or Long Acting Penicillin ?
Navel Ill
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ROCKSPRINGS
Well-known member
Calf is about week and a half old, cord is not drying up, knees look swollen, bull legged and walks on tip of front huffs. Haven't seen it in several days. Hoping it will clear up on its own. Going to find it tomorrow and want to be ready with medication. Thanks Dun.
larryshoat
Well-known member
Seems like they get harder to clear up, I use Excede in the ear, shot of long acting pen, 12ml oral amoxicillin 2 times a day for 4 or 5 days, then re-check.
Larry
Larry
Lucky_P
Well-known member
95+% of navel/joint ill cases are caused by E.coli - and they usually indicate at least a partial failure of transfer of maternal antibodies: no colostrum/not enough colostrum/poor colostrum quality, got colostrum too late, difficult delivery resulting in poor absorption, etc.
I'd go with one of the broad-spectrum antimicrobials - ceftiofur, the active ingredient in Naxcel and Excede is effective against almost every E.coli isolate I've seen over the past 20+ years.
LA-200 would be a 3rd or 4th place choice, but way better than penicillin.
Supplemental Vit.A and Vit.E/Se injections would also be in order to help the calf's immune system function at a higher level.
Folks, if anything you treated with 'long-acting penicillin' recovered, it would have done so even if you'd just p!ssed in it's ear. Most people(including way too many veterinarians) misuse penicillin from the outset - I would not expect it to have any significant effect on E.coli in navel/joint ill or Pasteurella/Mannheimia in pneumonia cases, etc.
Theoretically, a 'long-acting' penicillin preparation sounds good, and indeed, the benzathine penicillin G fraction in the available long-acting pen preparations does maintain a blood level for at least 48 hours - but it never gets high enough to kill ANYTHING! But, it will give you violative tissue residues for an extended time period.
If you get ANY response from treatment with L-A Pen, it's because of the procaine Pen G fraction, which produces a therapeutic blood level(if you give an appropriate dose) for up to 12 hours, and then drops off rapidly.
It's a joke that 'long-acting penicillin' products are still on the market. If they had to pass muster with the FDA today, there's no way they'd be approved, because the pharmacokinetic evidence is that the 'long-acting' (benzathine penicillin G) fraction does not/can not achieve an effective, therapeutic blood, tissue, or fluid concentration.
I'd go with one of the broad-spectrum antimicrobials - ceftiofur, the active ingredient in Naxcel and Excede is effective against almost every E.coli isolate I've seen over the past 20+ years.
LA-200 would be a 3rd or 4th place choice, but way better than penicillin.
Supplemental Vit.A and Vit.E/Se injections would also be in order to help the calf's immune system function at a higher level.
Folks, if anything you treated with 'long-acting penicillin' recovered, it would have done so even if you'd just p!ssed in it's ear. Most people(including way too many veterinarians) misuse penicillin from the outset - I would not expect it to have any significant effect on E.coli in navel/joint ill or Pasteurella/Mannheimia in pneumonia cases, etc.
Theoretically, a 'long-acting' penicillin preparation sounds good, and indeed, the benzathine penicillin G fraction in the available long-acting pen preparations does maintain a blood level for at least 48 hours - but it never gets high enough to kill ANYTHING! But, it will give you violative tissue residues for an extended time period.
If you get ANY response from treatment with L-A Pen, it's because of the procaine Pen G fraction, which produces a therapeutic blood level(if you give an appropriate dose) for up to 12 hours, and then drops off rapidly.
It's a joke that 'long-acting penicillin' products are still on the market. If they had to pass muster with the FDA today, there's no way they'd be approved, because the pharmacokinetic evidence is that the 'long-acting' (benzathine penicillin G) fraction does not/can not achieve an effective, therapeutic blood, tissue, or fluid concentration.
Great way to put it! I agree!Lucky_P":pm6o63uc said:
I usually use Nuflor or Resflor for navel/joint ill. However, with this new information that Lucky has shared, I will likely switch over to Excede.
Lucky, if E.coli is responsible for most cases of navel ill and joint ill, would the scours vaccine (for E.coli) also help prevent both problems? (assuming calf got adequate colostrum)
Lucky_P
Well-known member
jillaroo,
Nuflor/Resflor should be effective - I wasn't necessarily recommending Excede over any drug other than LA-200 & LA Pen.
I can't even begin to comment on cost differentials among those drugs - I've been doing diagnostic pathology for 20+ years - the only hands-on 'live-animal' medicine I practice any more is on my own herd, and the farm manager(wife, also a DVM) buys all the drugs, so I'm in the dark on the pricing end of things(all MY patients are dead, and I let the attending veterinarian work with the client on treatment options for the animals back home).
I'll readily admit that I don't know if the E.coli scours vaccine would help or not. I'd have to do some digging through the literature - for instance, I know that the colostral antibodies against rota/corona virus, once absorbed, do nothing to prevent infection, but vaccinated cows continue to pass detectable levels of antibody in their milk for at least a month after calving, essentially providing an 'antiseptic paint' to block/tie-up and rota or corona viruses the calf may come in contact with. Don't know if colostral antibodies elicited by the E.coli scours vaccines would have any effect on organisms gaining systemic entry through the umbilicus &/or soles of the feet(another potential route of infection).
E.coli is the main cause of navel/joint ill because it's the most common pathogenic bacterium in the newborn calf's environment - and especially so if it's wet, sloppy, and you're calving in an area with a high concentration of manure.
Best way to decrease the incidence is to calve on clean pasture, make sure the calf gets plenty of good quality colostrum, and that the dam is fed adequate protein during the last trimester so that 1)colostrum is of good quality, and 2)the calf is able to generate enough body heat to get up and nurse quickly.
Dipping/spraying the navel with iodine helps - and if you're going to do that, go ahead and dip/spray their hooves as well - only takes a few seconds more, and may help prevent a problem.
Nuflor/Resflor should be effective - I wasn't necessarily recommending Excede over any drug other than LA-200 & LA Pen.
I can't even begin to comment on cost differentials among those drugs - I've been doing diagnostic pathology for 20+ years - the only hands-on 'live-animal' medicine I practice any more is on my own herd, and the farm manager(wife, also a DVM) buys all the drugs, so I'm in the dark on the pricing end of things(all MY patients are dead, and I let the attending veterinarian work with the client on treatment options for the animals back home).
I'll readily admit that I don't know if the E.coli scours vaccine would help or not. I'd have to do some digging through the literature - for instance, I know that the colostral antibodies against rota/corona virus, once absorbed, do nothing to prevent infection, but vaccinated cows continue to pass detectable levels of antibody in their milk for at least a month after calving, essentially providing an 'antiseptic paint' to block/tie-up and rota or corona viruses the calf may come in contact with. Don't know if colostral antibodies elicited by the E.coli scours vaccines would have any effect on organisms gaining systemic entry through the umbilicus &/or soles of the feet(another potential route of infection).
E.coli is the main cause of navel/joint ill because it's the most common pathogenic bacterium in the newborn calf's environment - and especially so if it's wet, sloppy, and you're calving in an area with a high concentration of manure.
Best way to decrease the incidence is to calve on clean pasture, make sure the calf gets plenty of good quality colostrum, and that the dam is fed adequate protein during the last trimester so that 1)colostrum is of good quality, and 2)the calf is able to generate enough body heat to get up and nurse quickly.
Dipping/spraying the navel with iodine helps - and if you're going to do that, go ahead and dip/spray their hooves as well - only takes a few seconds more, and may help prevent a problem.
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
Lucky P, a good read, thanks.
by the way we use nuflor and flunazine for treating navel ill and lots of bedding for prevention. Our vet feels both scours and navel ill are 90% management issues.
LA still works for us for somethings, if caught early enough.
by the way we use nuflor and flunazine for treating navel ill and lots of bedding for prevention. Our vet feels both scours and navel ill are 90% management issues.
LA still works for us for somethings, if caught early enough.
my vet used nuflor on a calf of mine that had navel ill and he was going strong in 48 hrs but i noticed it quick. i was taking another heifer in and i took the calf with me. i had one other case and it cleared up with another kind of penicillin it was a orphaned premie calf that never nursed it's mom, he had colostrum replacer, he was very weak. i definately think it is the lack of or low quality colostrum both of mine were from heifers, i calve the heifers here at my house.
Nuflor says 3 cc/100 lbs IM then repeat. OR 6 cc Sub Q once. Whats the preferred approach for Naval ill? I have one That I've given two doses now of the 6 cc/100 spread apart two days. Naval infection is greatly diminished but calf seems very lethargic still and doesn't seem too be eating much. Nursed plenty when it was born and lively too so this is odd. Gonna do another dose of Nuflor tomorrow I reckon - day 7.
